Where do atheists get their morality from?

[DeistPaladin]

This proposal that through our evolution we can now better evaluate moral issues is highly dubious. The fact is there is no metric in existence that can tell us if we're doing a 'better' job or not, objectively.

I think the case couldn't be more clear. Prior to the 20th century, what we now call "wars of aggression" was a normal part of political life. Today, it is recognized as and prosecuted as a "war crime". Progress.

Two hundred years ago, slavery was an accepted institution in many parts of America and defended (often times using the Bible, btw). Today, it is recognized as an abhorrent practice. Progress.

So when I say we are evolving morally, it is in recognizing how certain actions create pain and violate the rights of others

I'm afraid this does lend itself to an "anything goes" system. There has been nothing presented to objectively justify otherwise, only reasons found arbitrary. The "Social Contract" is not necessarily obligating- there's nothing to say people cannot go off on their own and begin their own society with a different set of values- who then are you to say they are "wrong?" What if precisely half the world felt rape and slavery is ok? Who is right?

I'm having a little trouble here getting across my carefully articulated point that not all subjective opinions are equal. I can try repeating that some subjective opinions can be supported by objective data and logical argument while others can't but would there be any point? I'm not sure why you're not understanding what I'm telling you.

Your assertions concerning the origin of "Do unto others..." and how Muslims may 'feel' about their law does nothing to undermine the truth of the law, or one's obligation to it. That would commit the genetic fallacy.

How?

Ultimately, this view places a great deal of faith on mankind to "do the right thing." Incidentally, I have faith we will, for I believe God has written the moral code on all our hearts (Romans 2:14-15), but what assurance does the non-believer have?

You can believe that our conscience is a divine imprint or telepathic message from our Creator if you wish but I don't see how that strengthens your case. If we as humans are programmed with a conscience, what need have we of religion?

You say you believe morals are personally-relative, but honestly I think your backpedalling and appeals to authorities of statistics and/or social contracts betrays this feeling, and that you really feel objective moral values do exist!

And again, I'm having to repeat myself here. I've said over and over that yes, morality is subjective and, no, that doesn't mean "anything goes". Not all subjective evaluations are equal and that which is an evaluation can be supported or derailed by logical argument and objective data.

Also, to date, I have never received a satisfactory explanation of what "objective morals" would even be, as the very phrase seems an oxymoron.

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]

If anyone has any question on Islam and how Muslims view things, just let me know. I see that it has come up. I've studied a bit of the matter, and it's actually quite interesting. Just let me know if you're interested.

[Boccaccio]

[stephenmills1000]

[discordianpope]

I'm arguing from a purely philosophical position, one where objective moral values don't exist. This is the default position of atheism from which our moral norms are derived. The problem is, our atheistic position cannot RATIONALLY reject the possibility of genocide, rape, murder and the likes being morally good. There is always the possibility. And more importantly, it's a metaphysical possibility, not just a logical one.

This is worrying for the rational atheists among us, and this is an area I am enormously interested in researching. My problem is, I need a better grasp of the fundamentals of ethics and moral studies.

I don't buy this. But even if true, is a theist really in any better a position. I mean, if morality is based on God's will and God can will that genocide is moral, then well I guess a theist would just have to accept that. It's just the euthyphro dilemma. Either there are true moral propositions which exist independantly from God or God can make rape moral. This kind of theistic morality is as shifting and unsure as any secular morality.

[greneknight]

As slandered as he has been here, I can't disagree with Vinny regarding the atheist moral landscape, when he says:

I'm arguing from a purely philosophical position, one where objective moral values don't exist. This is the default position of atheism from which our moral norms are derived. The problem is, our atheistic position cannot RATIONALLY reject the possibility of genocide, rape, murder and the likes being morally good. There is always the possibility. And more importantly, it's a metaphysical possibility, not just a logical one.

This is worrying for the rational atheists among us, and this is an area I am enormously interested in researching. My problem is, I need a better grasp of the fundamentals of ethics and moral studies.

When I first read what you wrote, I asked myself who the writer might be. Everyone knows Vinny is a Christian who pretends to be an atheist. Vinny has not denied this allegation. Then I realized it was written by a Christian. Hahahaha!!!

What Vinny the Christian who pretends to be an atheist wrote is typical nonsense I've read in fundy websites. There is no objective morality in Christianity. In fact, if you read the Bible too much, you might really end up believing that God supports rape and carnage. A Christian who accuses an atheist of having the potential to commit rape and murder because of his stand that there is no objective morality is like a serial murderer who accuses someone of cheating on the parking meter. You don't know how much I cringe every time I read such self-righteous garbage.

[Boccaccio]

[Boccaccio]

I will not be reading or responding to posts on this thread for about four days, Monday or Tuesday of next week.

Have fun.

[stephenmills1000]

I look forward to your return. Until then, stay well!

[Vincenzo Vinny G.]