Why is it illegal to be happy?

[Darkstar]

When I was 13 or 14, I had a few people, teachers and otherwise, I would have loved to have sex with. I kinda feel uncomfortable with the idea of that being automatically rape.

Er...I feel uncomfortable with the idea of having sex with your teacher... I can't claim to know how people feel about sex in general, but maybe it would be rape, or maybe they would think you were crazy... I'm not trying to be mean, but I really don't understand the sentiment. They figure that younger kids don't really understand sex and its implications all too well. Most of us know (I think) of the middle school girl who gets pregnant and is dumped by her high school boyfirend. Most people just don't understand yet.

[Reforged]

Let me rephrase that to make it simple:

1. why do we call erotic entertainment "adult" when we have all watched it under the age of 18

2. why is the legal age for sex in Poland set at 15 in Poland while the legal age for "adult" entertainment is 18

3. Why do the Xtians like you want to "protect" people from masturbation and fantasy while they do not seem to protect them from anal rape by priests

Those are some sound points.

1. Because sex is a practice we associate with adulthood.

2. Fair question, definitely should be reconsidered.

3. Because sex is a threat to them. Sexual passions rival religious passions.
If you make someone feel guilty about sexual urges they can't control it gives you a degree of control over them. Through guilt you can humble them and make them seek your "salvation".
Their sexual angst, their guilt, their feeling that they must be redeemed for what is beyond their control.
All of these things help build the fanaticism religion so loves to cultivate in its followers.
In this way they turn a threat into a boon.

They do the same with the rebellious aggression associated with teenage years by directing it at outside sources such as rival religions or "heretics".
Instead of attempting to cull such tendencies they promote and redirect them.
Religious indoctrination really is fascinating isn't it?

Please stop talking about sex with 12 year olds though. It only serves to undermine your points and is slightly disturbing.

[TaraJo]

...So you want to know why it is illeagal to not involve Children in sex acts? Seriously?

Because at 12 or whatever age you want to push the 'age of consent' back to, a Child does not understand the totality of the desision he/she is being forced to make. Therfore if a Child can not protect him/herself then soceity has an obligation to do that for them by telling people who want to have sex with kids that they will be put in prision far removed from children.

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Just an observation:

but, Wow. 20 people looked at this thread, and no one could be bothered to say anything against this? It this what it means to be atheist? To remain silent when someone openly wants to have sex with little kids?

....

Yeeeah, was with you up until you equated people not commenting as all being atheist.
Could it be that maybe, just maybe the people who looked at it were guests and therefore not able to comment? Funny, I don't see comments from any other Christians here but you.
I mean its great you did comment on it but please don't be so fucking stupid as to make out that people who are atheists are somehow alright with paedophilia.
Its see-through, pathetic and has lowered my opinion of you even further.
I didn't even know that was possible.

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Yep. And I think he has points. When I was 13 or 14, I had a few people, teachers and otherwise, I would have loved to have sex with. I kinda feel uncomfortable with the idea of that being automatically rape. If I had exactly the same feelings and desires and thoughts and incentives just a few short years later, it would have been perfectly legal. And I hate how people can be charged with rape because a girl they had sex with lied to them about her age. And on the other hand, it bothers me how it can be perfectly legal to manipulate a naive 18 year old person into a sexual relationship they aren't ready for but can't engage in a relationship with someone who, while younger, is much more mentally/psychologically mature. Yes, I think the age of consent laws need to be reconsidered and reworked.

Great, who judges which minors are both physically and psychologically equipped?
How do we judge people who decide they're ok with screwing children?
Is it not a safer and fairer approach to judge via age?

I do agree however if someone lies about their age charges should be dropped.

Well, mostly I'm concerned because our sex laws are more about arbitrary ages and less about the psychological/mental maturity of the people involved. If someone is a mature 15 year old, I'd be more willing to trust their choices sexually than an irresponsible/immature 18 year old. Laws should have wiggle room.

[Drich]

Yeeeah, was with you up until you equated people not commenting as all being atheist.
Could it be that maybe, just maybe the people who looked at it were guests and therefore not able to comment? Funny, I don't see comments from any other Christians here but you.

I don't know how your AF page presents, but on the top near where the list of threads begin, there is a list of Members who are all in this thread. (None of which were Christian.) Which is why I made the comment.
If they were I would have said something. But any way thier was a handful when I first clicked on this thread.

I mean its great you did comment on it but please don't be so fucking stupid as to make out that people who are atheists are somehow alright with paedophilia.

Pediophilia was not the issue i was pointing out. It is the netural stance that is synomous with atheism in general. Which causes some of you all to pause to see how a 'room' will react before you say anything. I am sure if the conversation when the otherway and there was a few of the more outspoken members who entertained the idea even jokingly, those "Not alright" with pedophillia would have moved on, and been Not alright with it. Again Not to say someone would not have said something because you are all too opionated to not speak out. The point being was I was the 20th person to view this thread with a hand full of 'other' members at hand and the first to say something. The topic (and where any of you stand in relation to said topic) is a secondary concern to the point I was making. Point being 20 of you have sold your selves/your 'morality' to see what other people were going to say first. This is the danger of atheism I was speaking of. That you (at least the 20) felt the need to keep their thoughts to themselves on a topic that just a few years ago would have demanded heads to roll!

Its see-through, pathetic and has lowered my opinion of you even further.
I didn't even know that was possible.

Your trying to make this about something it is not. There were 20 views (24 by the time I posted my 'judgement.') and not one word from anyone. There were at least 5 members present (including the OP Which is the first thing I look for when posting in a new thread, so as to not wander off if their is a quick response.)

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[quote='TaraJo' pid='340768' dateline='1348458275']
Well, mostly I'm concerned because our sex laws are more about arbitrary ages and less about the psychological/mental maturity of the people involved. If someone is a mature 15 year old, I'd be more willing to trust their choices sexually than an irresponsible/immature 18 year old. Laws should have wiggle room.

...And at 15 who pays for the consenquences of this sex? What happens when the 15 year old get herpies or aids.. Or just has a baby? Your basing a judgement on the mental capasity of a 15year old, and ignoring everything else. a 15 yearold who has a kid is not going to be able to support that kid. That means your kid will be making desisions that will be effecting the whole household. How insane is that? Would you allow a 15 yearold who has maybe a min wage job to buy a 30,000 dollar car and put it in your name? Then why let them spend 30k on all the baby stuff that will be needed?

People Shouldn't have sex until they can completely deal with all of the possiable responsiables of intercourse. (Married)

[Darkstar]

Pediophilia was not the issue i was pointing out. It is the netural stance that is synomous with atheism in general. Which causes some of you all to pause to see how a 'room' will react before you say anything. I am sure if the conversation when the otherway and there was a few of the more outspoken members who entertained the idea even jokingly, those "Not alright" with pedophillia would have moved on, and been Not alright with it. Again Not to say someone would not have said something because you are all too opionated to not speak out. The point being was I was the 20th person to view this thread with a hand full of 'other' members at hand and the first to say something. The topic (and where any of you stand in relation to said topic) is a secondary concern to the point I was making. Point being 20 of you have sold your selves/your 'morality' to see what other people were going to say first. This is the danger of atheism I was speaking of. That you (at least the 20) felt the need to keep their thoughts to themselves on a topic that just a few years ago would have demanded heads to roll!

Really? You first say that anyone who disagreed with those who were vocal would keep quiet and then say atheists are too opinionated to do so. I don't think anyone was concerned with what anyone else would say first. Atheists have disagreed respectfully (and occasionally disrespectfully) on this forum plenty of times about issues other than belief in god.

Could it be that maybe, just maybe the people who looked at it were guests and therefore not able to comment?

Did you miss that part?

[Ciel_Rouge]

...And at 15 who pays for the consenquences of this sex? What happens when the 15 year old get herpies or aids.. Or just has a baby?

Have you heard about condoms? Regarding the age of 15 - well, 15 IS THE LEGAL AGE in many European countries and 16 is the legal age in North Carolina, California and about a dozen American states.

Your basing a judgement on the mental capasity of a 15year old, and ignoring everything else. a 15 yearold who has a kid is not going to be able to support that kid.

So is a 30 year old unemployed guy. But nobody is denying sex to the unemployed, right?

People Shouldn't have sex until they can completely deal with all of the possiable responsiables of intercourse. (Married)

Ahhh, yesss - I have been expecting the M word to magically appear How about people who have a very HIGH income but are NOT married? How about people who ARE married but still UNABLE to pay for all the "baby stuff"?

Does anyone else get the impression that the Xtians want the following:

People should not have any sexual stimulation outside of marriage. No masturbation, no adult entertainment, nada. Just procreation.

THIS is why you are so obsessed about not using condoms. And THIS is why you attack adult entertainment.

And what does this lead to? In this way you get a world of people who are very incompetent sexually and disconnected from their bodies, you get men unable to make thier women climax and acting very boring, almost automatic and do not even enjoy it much because they had no chance to learn BEFORE they got married. You get men and women who are deeply unhappy and very frustrated. And this kind of accumulated grief is very useful - you can redirect this anger at whatever you want. Also, unhappy people are much more easy to control. And this is already happening in some Arabic countries and in many extreme cultures. Do we really want this where we live?

[Darkstar]

Let me rephrase that to make it simple:

1. why do we call erotic entertainment "adult" when we have all watched it under the age of 18

2. why is the legal age for sex in Poland set at 15 in Poland while the legal age for "adult" entertainment is 18

3. Why do the Xtians like you want to "protect" people from masturbation and fantasy while they do not seem to protect them from anal rape by priests

If this is really what it boils down to that takes out about...100% of the percieved creepiness.

What you would have gladly seen is me being "executed" and "condemned" immediately after just referring to the subject of the complexity of age of consent.

Reading the OP it wasn't immediately obvious that this is all you meant (perhaps due to the...unusual anecdote about your teacher,etc.), but that is a good question. The age at which people become mature enough for consent varies greatly. The xtian views on sex purport it as evil(ish?) but it really boils down to when someone is mature enough to understand what they are doing. As for 'adult' entertainment, one would think that people would be less opposed to it than to the actual act, which would include the risk of pregnancy, STDs, etc. (mostly if they don't know what they're doing). I don't claim to be an expert on the subject (I'm a virgin, and I've never seen porn...does that make me weird?) but I think my opinion is at least somewhat valid, at least about this much.

[TaraJo]

...And at 15 who pays for the consenquences of this sex? What happens when the 15 year old get herpies or aids.. Or just has a baby? Your basing a judgement on the mental capasity of a 15year old, and ignoring everything else. a 15 yearold who has a kid is not going to be able to support that kid. That means your kid will be making desisions that will be effecting the whole household. How insane is that? Would you allow a 15 yearold who has maybe a min wage job to buy a 30,000 dollar car and put it in your name? Then why let them spend 30k on all the baby stuff that will be needed?

People Shouldn't have sex until they can completely deal with all of the possiable responsiables of intercourse. (Married)

Well, yes, I think the age of consent laws need to take multiple factors into consideration and one of those should include ability to take care of a child both emotionally and financially. In short, I think that instead of being tied down by mandatory sentencing laws and strict age laws, judges should have more freedom to determine if someone was actually raped or not. I've seen way too many grey areas where people get in trouble. I've met a 15 year old guy who was charged with rape because his girlfriend was 13. I've heard stories of guys being charged with statutory rape because her parents found out they were having sex in a window period between when he turned 18 and when she did. Yes, there are girls out there who will walk up to a guy in a bar, claim to be 21 (or else they couldn't be in a bar in the first place) and they're really only 17 or so.

Asking someone to wait until they're married for sex is a bit naive if you ask me, not to mention it would result in a lot more divorces, if it worked. Study after study, though, has shown that even when people claim they're going to wait for marriage, they don't. Besides which, it's kinda difficult for some people to get married thanks to laws like DOMA.

[CapnAwesome]

My main question is this:

1. why do we even call adult entertainment "adult"? It is clearly not watched only by adults and I suppose we have all seen it before the "arbitrary age".

2. why decide on the "proper age" for something as intimate and personal as discovering the world of one's own sexuality?

3. don't you feel "only for adults" sounds like "only for whites" or something? A kind of discrimination?

At the same time, it is perfectly OK for 7 year olds to watch people chopping off limbs and smashing brains in games or films - once again, the sex-hating and suffering-loving Christianity...

Now - by watching "adult" entertainment we are basically watching people who are having fun and being happy which makes us happy as well. What the hell is wrong with that?

And finally the ultimate question - were it not for the mutated Xtian pleasure-haters,

4. what would be so wrong in me approaching the 25 year old teacher while I am 12 and simply having some fun together?

If I was clearly willing and aware and so was she, the only problem seems to be not having children later? Do we have children with all people we date?

As far as I'm aware, there is no law against you exploring your own sexuality as a child, by yourself. I also strongly doubt that there have been arrests against minors for viewing pornography. As far as I'm aware those laws mostly concern distributors, and not children viewing pornography.

So basically your first three questions are moot, and really an effort to try to mix your fourth question, the one that attempts to justify pedophilia, with three innocuous strawmen.

Children, especially someone as young as 12 are psychologically and in the case of girls, often physically harmed by participating in sex with adults. Given that, as you yourself admit, they are still 'exploring' their own sexuality, they are in no way capable of a decision that could very well affect them for the rest of their life.

The other more disturbing side to your question deals with the adults who are attracted to children. While I don't believe there is something inately wrong with being attracted to children, acting on it is. Children don't know entirely what they are doing when it comes to sex, and adults do. That is rape by almost every definition.

P.S. I also highly doubt that you are a 12 year old boy, as you pose in your scenario in your fourth question, and also suggest that you take a long long time to think about why you posed it in the way that you did.

[Ciel_Rouge]

The age at which people become mature enough for consent varies greatly.

Indeed. Darkstar, please take a look at this chart - does it not look just CRAZY??? The VERY SAME person is perfectly "mature" and "adult" in North Carolina but completely "irresponsible" and "underage" in California:

The xtian views on sex purport it as evil(ish?) but it really boils down to when someone is mature enough to understand what they are doing.

I highly doubt that. The Christians, at least the Catholics and the Orthodox obsessively BAN THE USE OF CONDOMS. Is this responsible? If you visit the Balcans in Europe you will find out that STDs are very widespread there and this is no coincidence.

As for 'adult' entertainment, one would think that people would be less opposed to it than to the actual act, which would include the risk of pregnancy, STDs, etc. (mostly if they don't know what they're doing).

Yeah, you would expect people to be LESS opposed IF they acted based on REASON. But they act based on RELIGION. According to them, adult entertainment is "bad" because:

1. it is ENTERTAINMENT so it shows that you can actually ENJOY your sexuality, that it is fun and a complex thing and not only procreation
2. it shows people having sex outside of marriage
3. it shows sexual expression that does not lead to procreation

I suppose the reason why the age of consent is lower than the age for adult entertainment is because the priests want people to strongly associate sex with procreation and penetration so that they disregard or at least are less influenced by the idea that pleasure and sexuality is part of being human and being alive and a very complex thing.

To an Xtian, every time you do anything sexual, you are at least trying to make a baby. This excludes or at least deems irrelevant such ideas as:

1. satisfying your partner
2. playing your fantasies
3. having fun and being open and creative

It is as if somebody told you to eat just to get the nutrients and stay aive but never care about the taste or have fun cooking. Would you like to live in a world like that?