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September 25, 2012 at 12:38 am (This post was last modified: September 25, 2012 at 12:39 am by Mystic.)
يَوْمَ يَجْمَعُكُمْ لِيَوْمِ الْجَمْعِ ۖ ذَٰلِكَ يَوْمُ التَّغَابُنِ ۗ وَمَنْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُكَفِّرْ عَنْهُ سَيِّئَاتِهِ وَيُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ {9}
[Shakir 64:9] On the day that He will gather you for the day of gathering, that is the day of loss and gain; and whoever believes in Allah and does good, He will remove from him his evil and cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide therein forever; that is the great achievement.
[Pickthal 64:9] The day when He shall gather you unto the Day of Assembling, that will be a day of mutual disillusion. And whoso believeth in Allah and doeth right, He will remit from him his evil deeds and will bring him unto Gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein to abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.
[Yusufali 64:9] The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain (among you), and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that will be the Supreme Achievement.
According to this verse, all one must do is believe in God and do good to enter paradise. However many verses show you cannot disbelieve in God's guidance (ie. his Messengers/revelations/books/Guides).
It's also possible to believe in God and associate with him per this verse:
وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُمْ مُشْرِكُونَ {106}
[Shakir 12:106] And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
[Pickthal 12:106] And most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute partners (unto Him).
[Yusufali 12:106] And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him
And other verses show polytheists believed in God as well.
Now the contradiction is
1) You can believe in God and deny Islam/Quran/his revelations.
2) You can believe in God and still worship others.
Per the verse 64:9 if you do either of these, and you do good, you will enter paradise.
Apparently this issue can be solved if you say disbelievers are incapable of doing good. Very cold, I know, but yes I heard it from a Muslim that says this is the Quranic stance. :S
(September 30, 2012 at 2:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Apparently this issue can be solved if you say disbelievers are incapable of doing good. Very cold, I know, but yes I heard it from a Muslim that says this is the Quranic stance. :S
Which is why there are all of the negative stereotypes about atheists.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
(September 30, 2012 at 2:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Apparently this issue can be solved if you say disbelievers are incapable of doing good. Very cold, I know, but yes I heard it from a Muslim that says this is the Quranic stance. :S
If a Muslim does a good thing, and then a disbeliever does the exact same thing, has the disbeliever done a good thing?
(September 30, 2012 at 2:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Apparently this issue can be solved if you say disbelievers are incapable of doing good. Very cold, I know, but yes I heard it from a Muslim that says this is the Quranic stance. :S
If a Muslim does a good thing, and then a disbeliever does the exact same thing, has the disbeliever done a good thing?
If there is a god (dubious), there is no reason that it ought to value belief in it, that's purely ridiculous. This issue comes up a lot with Blaise Pascal's theological wager and it has been shown many times that God does not necessarily value belief. Moral behaviour is more likely to end with you in your desired fictitious paradise.
Religion is an attempt to answer the philosophical questions of the unphilosophical man.
(September 30, 2012 at 5:48 pm)liam Wrote: If there is a god (dubious), there is no reason that it ought to value belief in it, that's purely ridiculous. This issue comes up a lot with Blaise Pascal's theological wager and it has been shown many times that God does not necessarily value belief.
The god described in the bible apparently has low self-esteem.
(September 30, 2012 at 10:05 pm)Polaris Wrote: In Islam, you have to go to Hell first to burn out the sinful desires but I believe it is only temporary unlike the Christian understanding.
It's not temporary. There is many verses that show it's eternal. For example:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَتَّخِذُ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ أَنْدَادًا يُحِبُّونَهُمْ كَحُبِّ اللَّهِ ۖ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَشَدُّ حُبًّا لِلَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ يَرَى الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا إِذْ يَرَوْنَ الْعَذَابَ أَنَّ الْقُوَّةَ لِلَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعَذَابِ {165}
[Shakir 2:165] And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[Pickthal 2:165] Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves (objects of worship which they set as) rivals to Allah, loving them with a love like (that which is the due) of Allah (only) - those who believe are stauncher in their love for Allah - Oh, that those who do evil had but known, (on the day) when they behold the doom, that power belongeth wholly to Allah, and that Allah is severe in punishment!
[Yusufali 2:165] Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty.
إِذْ تَبَرَّأَ الَّذِينَ اتُّبِعُوا مِنَ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوا وَرَأَوُا الْعَذَابَ وَتَقَطَّعَتْ بِهِمُ الْأَسْبَابُ {166}
[Shakir 2:166] When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder.
[Pickthal 2:166] (On the day) when those who were followed disown those who followed (them), and they behold the doom, and all their aims collapse with them.
[Yusufali 2:166] Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.
وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوا لَوْ أَنَّ لَنَا كَرَّةً فَنَتَبَرَّأَ مِنْهُمْ كَمَا تَبَرَّءُوا مِنَّا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُرِيهِمُ اللَّهُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ حَسَرَاتٍ عَلَيْهِمْ ۖ وَمَا هُمْ بِخَارِجِينَ مِنَ النَّارِ {167}
[Shakir 2:167] And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
[Pickthal 2:167] And those who were but followers will say: If a return were possible for us, we would disown them even as they have disowned us. Thus will Allah show them their own deeds as anguish for them, and they will not emerge from the Fire.
[Yusufali 2:167] And those who followed would say: "If only We had one more chance, We would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us." Thus will Allah show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire.
There is in fact many verses. "have no share in the hereafater" "will have nothing in the hereafter but the fire" "every time they wish to get out of it, they will be returned to it" "the abiding chatisement lasting in forever" "the punishment shall never be decreased upon them" "every time the punishment is allayed to them, we will increase them in punishment"....