Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: August 21, 2025, 11:29 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
#1
Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/...it-freedom

Can we start taxing them now?
I live on facebook. Come see me there. http://www.facebook.com/tara.rizzatto

"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
Reply
#2
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
Yes, we can and we ought to. Their point for doing this, however, is to directly challenge the IRS, and I fear they will back down.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply
#3
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
Personally I hope they do it as I believe it will blow up in their faces. Americans are equally split politically, and have become accustomed to not hearing political views with which they disagree. If a church-goer has to sit through a sermon that is intrinsically political, I think the reaction will be very bad from more than half of parishoners.

Also, the articles suggests that the reason they are doing it is to force the IRS to take the issue to court. But the tax law (501C3, summarized below) that prohibits churches from campaigning is the same law that applies to the vast majority of non-profit organizations. That's going to be a tough sell - suddenly allowing all non-profits to become political. I believe the majority of them would oppose the change, as they know that becoming political, or even being perceived as being potentially political, would hurt donations.

"In exchange for the receipt of tax-exempt status, I.R.C. § 501©(3) absolutely prohibits churches and other tax-exempt organizations from campaigning for or against a candidate for public office. If a church participates or interferes, directly or indirectly, in any political campaign for or against any candidate for public office by publishing and distributing certain written material or making oral statements regarding the candidate, then a church can lose its tax-exempt status for violating the campaigning ban. I.R.C. § 1.501©(3)-1©(3)(iii). Quite simply courts have interpreted 501©(3) to ban any degree of participation or intervention in a campaign for public office. Ass’n of the Bar of N.Y. v. Comm'r of Internal Revenue, 858 F.2d 876, 879 (2d Cir. 1988)."
[Image: generic_sig.jpg]
Reply
#4
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
Quote: Please realize that constitutional rights are not an issue here. The First Amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Churches are not required to incorporate or file for tax exempt status. IRS publications say that. But if they want these things, there is nothing illegal about them promising to give up their rights in exchange for the “benefits” of incorporation and tax exemption. When Christian Echoes had its tax exempt status removed by the IRS, the 10th District Court said:

In light of the fact that tax exemption is a privilege, a matter of grace rather than right, we [the 10th District Court] hold that the limitations contained in section 501©(3) withholding exemption from nonprofit corporations do not deprive Christian Echoes of its constitutionally guaranteed right of freedom of speech. (Christian Echoes National Ministry, Inc. v. United States, 470 F.2d 849 (10th Cir. 1972); cert. denied, 414 U.S. 864 (1973)).

The Supreme court declined to hear an appeal of the above case, letting the ruling stand as a legal precedent.
Reply
#5
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
(September 25, 2012 at 5:16 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Please realize that constitutional rights are not an issue here. The First Amendment says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Churches are not required to incorporate or file for tax exempt status. IRS publications say that. But if they want these things, there is nothing illegal about them promising to give up their rights in exchange for the “benefits” of incorporation and tax exemption. When Christian Echoes had its tax exempt status removed by the IRS, the 10th District Court said:

In light of the fact that tax exemption is a privilege, a matter of grace rather than right, we [the 10th District Court] hold that the limitations contained in section 501©(3) withholding exemption from nonprofit corporations do not deprive Christian Echoes of its constitutionally guaranteed right of freedom of speech. (Christian Echoes National Ministry, Inc. v. United States, 470 F.2d 849 (10th Cir. 1972); cert. denied, 414 U.S. 864 (1973)).

The Supreme court declined to hear an appeal of the above case, letting the ruling stand as a legal precedent.

I'm not a lawyer but from what I've read of the Christain Echoes case, they were specifically not endorsing a political candidate, and were found instead to be pursuing religious goals, so I don't know if that's the right precedent case to look at in the OP's situations.
[Image: generic_sig.jpg]
Reply
#6
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
(September 25, 2012 at 11:19 am)TaraJo Wrote: http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/...it-freedom

Can we start taxing them now?
If taxes is all that you want, that you shall receive.
You cannot do anyting with threatening a single person, or a group of people. These people ought to know by themselves that their pastor or priest should not be the wingman of a political party or platform. But you cannot teach them this by simply taxing them.
[Image: trkdevletbayraklar.jpg]
Üze Tengri basmasar, asra Yir telinmeser, Türük bodun ilingin törüngin kim artatı udaçı erti?
Reply
#7
RE: Thousand pastors using "Pulpit Freedom Sunday" to cross the line between church and state
With any luck, we'll see half of those churches fold after the IRS gets thru with them.


(September 25, 2012 at 9:40 pm)Tino Wrote: I'm not a lawyer but from what I've read of the Christain Echoes case, they were specifically not endorsing a political candidate, and were found instead to be pursuing religious goals, so I don't know if that's the right precedent case to look at in the OP's situations.

Yeah, but the Robert's court, as conservative as it is, still sees no issues with politically motivated non-profits getting taxed. These guys have probably screwed up big time.
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  What happens if you "tell" a police to f**k off? Freedom of speech? Duty 16 2157 April 17, 2022 at 9:35 am
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  Ayn Rand blamed for current state of America Silver 61 7233 June 24, 2021 at 6:17 pm
Last Post: no one
  Has Mark Samsel Done A Good Job As A Kansas State Representative? BrianSoddingBoru4 11 1867 May 3, 2021 at 10:56 am
Last Post: Pat Mustard
  Separation of Science and State John 6IX Breezy 233 24916 November 19, 2020 at 7:44 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why is Vatican a state? Fake Messiah 13 2423 November 11, 2020 at 9:07 am
Last Post: Gawdzilla Sama
  Satan and Flying Spaghetti Monster Unite for Church-State Separation AFTT47 2 1001 September 23, 2019 at 8:29 am
Last Post: GrandizerII
  The communist state of Kerela, India Duty 5 1353 December 22, 2018 at 11:33 pm
Last Post: DodosAreDead
  Can the polarization between Democrats and Republicans in the U.S. be reversed? Angrboda 36 8826 December 4, 2018 at 9:34 am
Last Post: Little lunch
  State level elections in BAvaria yield ground breaking results Deesse23 0 510 October 15, 2018 at 3:50 am
Last Post: Deesse23
  So Apparently We Have An AG Who Doesn't Think Hawaii Is A State. Minimalist 39 11406 October 1, 2018 at 2:17 pm
Last Post: Losty



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)