Uni Health Care

[Tiberius]

As opposed to socialism, which breeds a populace that don't want to work because they don't need to. Cue society's meltdown.

[bozo]

As opposed to socialism, which breeds a populace that don't want to work because they don't need to. Cue society's meltdown.

far too trite for you...come on libertarian, explain away my critique.

[dry land fish]

These things happen right now because the government has their hands in pharm sales.

You have it ass backwards. The US government does not control the pharmaceutical companies. The pharmaceutical and insurance companies and Wall Street control the government. It's NOT the government that is evil. It's big business. It corporations. That's what owns the US government, insurance, pharmaceutical and Wall Street. If you think the governement has that much control over people on it's own you are mistaken.
We need the government to take control of health care. You are so misinformed about the whole situation it isn't funny. You think your own personal experience is how the whole system works. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

If corporations already control government then they will continue to control the government after it takes over the healthcare system. You are right about the fact that corporations control government. We are NOT going to get the old American government back. Just kiss it goodbye. It's too corrupt to change now. It's important for people to find ways of helping themselves and to not rely on the government. Government control of anything has never been a good idea. What happens when we get another Bush in office? We will have other Presidents that are power hungry and stupid just like he was. They could really screw things up for us. Think about the future. Just the words "government control" scare me. I don't know why left wingers want the government to control things or start up these social welfare programs. I don't understand why the right wingers want corporations to be able to control things. We don't need either!!!! We need a happy medium and all we need to do is tweak a few things in healthcare and that is it. Illegal aliens can get medical treatment in America today! I mean what else do people want? We already have one of the best systems in the world when it comes to first class healthcare! Just because someone has to pay for it doesn't mean the system is broken. Life isn't about getting things for free!!! Why is it so hard to see that?

[Minimalist]

We are NOT going to get the old American government back.

May I ask a question?


What "old government" was that? The one that allowed the robber barons to steal everything that wasn't nailed down or pollute the environment at will? Or, the one that allowed slavery? Or the one that broke every treaty it ever made to exterminate the Indians? Or perhaps merely the one that demanded that blacks sit at the back of the bus?

Are you SURE you want to take that little trip down memory lane?

[dry land fish]

As opposed to socialism, which breeds a populace that don't want to work because they don't need to. Cue society's meltdown.

Yes!!! I promise you that is how socialism in America goes. People are always looking for what they can get for nothing.

Minimalist: As for the "Old America" I was speaking of it was the one that was created when our fore fathers came here and started this government. No...I do not want slaves or slavery to be legal again! Why would you even suggest that? I higly doubt that this is what our founding fathers viewed for this country. Bottom line is that it's not wise to trust the American government with anything important. We couldn't even trust them to tell us the truth about a war! I don't trust them to keep me safe or to tell me the truth. I see politcians lips moving and it's like I hear Charlie Browns mom speaking. They all promise big things but usually they make a big mess and end up costing the taxpayers money to fix it. A lot of you people are some super liberals and I'm used to dealing with super conservatives due to where I live. Being extreme on either side has it's negatives. I've never seen a group of people so willing to just let the government do everything and control everything.

[Minimalist]

I higly doubt that this is what our founding fathers viewed for this country.

I'm starting to doubt your knowledge of civics, DLF.

Read it and weep.

Link

The Constitution has often been called a living tribute to the art of compromise. In the slavery question, this can be seen most clearly. The Convention had representatives from every corner of the United States, including, of course, the South, where slavery was most pronounced. Slavery, in fact, was the backbone of the primary industry of the South, and it was accepted as a given that agriculture in the South without slave labor was not possible. Though slaves were not cheap by any measure, they were cheaper than hiring someone to do the same work. The cultivation of rice, cotton, and tobacco required slaves to work the fields from dawn to dusk. If the nation did not guarantee the continuation of slavery to the South, it was questioned whether they would form their own nation.

Slavery is seen in the Constitution in a few key places. The first is in the Enumeration Clause, where representatives are apportioned. Each state is given a number of representatives based on its population - in that population, slaves, called "other persons," are counted as three-fifths of a whole person. This compromise was hard-fought, with Northerners wishing that slaves, legally property, but uncounted, much as mules and horses are uncounted. Southerners, however, well aware of the high proportion of slaves to the total population in their states, wanted them counted as whole persons despite their legal status. The three-fifths number was a ratio used by the Congress in contemporary legislation and was agreed upon with little debate.

In Article 1, Section 9, Congress is limited, expressly, from prohibiting the "Importation" of slaves, before 1808. The slave trade was a bone of contention for many, with some who supported slavery abhorring the slave trade. The 1808 date, a compromise of 20 years, allowed the slave trade to continue, but placed a date-certain on its survival. Congress eventually passed a law outlawing the slave trade that became effective on January 1, 1808.

The Fugitive Slave Clause is the last mention. In it, a problem that slave states had with extradition of escaped slaves was resolved. The laws of one state, the clause says, cannot excuse a person from "Service or Labour" in another state. The clause expressly requires that the state in which an escapee is found deliver the slave to the state he escaped from "on Claim of the Party."

Let me give you a second example of American propaganda bullshit which I'm starting to think you have never thought about. "Government of the people, by the people and for the people...."
This phrase was uttered by Lincoln while opening a cemetery for some of the dead in a war which endeavored to keep some 40% of those "people" in that government at bayonet point.

I think you need to be a little more discriminating about "history."

[dry land fish]

Why are you so hung up on slavery? No one is even talking about it except you. Are you one of those people that feel that Black people deserve more than anyone else because of what some assholes did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago? Last I checked slavery was abolished and Blacks have the same rights as whites. So....stop it with the racial crap because I think we have moved on. At least....most of us have until people like you like to bring it up. I'm well aware of slavery. I'm from the south...we have civil war festivals and everyone wears rebel flag t shirts and talks about how the "south will rise again". I see it every day and I don't need anyone reminding me about how the south is. I am not talking about slavery and so you are trying to make me into some hate monger that wants to bring slavery back. Of course it was in the constitution....it was legal then. We know it was wrong so move on. The constitution is our only document that we can cling to. That constitution also calls for separation of church and state...so I bet you don't have any crap to dish about that one.

People need to get over slavery. It happened and it was messed up and we stopped it and move on. The south will never rise again and we'll never have blacks picking cotton in a hot Georgia field again. Both sides Black and White need to just give it a rest. It's 2009 so act like it. The American Government will NEVER be about the people. It will always be about the corrupt politicians. Giving them more power over our personal decisions and lives is just insane. I don't want the Government knowing anything more about me than they know now. I do not trust the American government. Why do some of you trust our government? It's horribly corrupt.

[Violet]

Slavery is one of the best examples of American hypocrisy... why not bring it up as an example of such? Another great example of our idiocy you supplied: "Black people deserve more than anyone else because of what some assholes did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago?". Here in AK, USA, we allow the Native Americans to circumvent laws against whale and eagle hunting because we 'displaced' them when we 'invaded'.

In the USA, dark-skinned humans are sometimes given an unfair treatment by pink-skins, wether intentionally or not. Not all of us have moved on, if Southern Baptists really are as bad as you say. And how will people ever 'get over it', when they are still treated unfairly because of it.

An example of unfair treatment can be easily linked to our election of Barack Obama. That he was darker-skinned than the average American was even for a moment considered as a pro or con point shows just how little we have moved on.

---

As for your theory that our government is corrupt, perhaps you should look up the Ancient Roman Republic, which our system of government is based almost entirely upon. You will notice that the Republic eventually became an empire because of the simple failings of democratic election and the republic system itself.

An empire also has its severe failings though. You should know that very few things will last forever.

[dry land fish]

Slavery is one of the best examples of American hypocrisy... why not bring it up as an example of such? Another great example of our idiocy you supplied: "Black people deserve more than anyone else because of what some assholes did to their ancestors hundreds of years ago?". Here in AK, USA, we allow the Native Americans to circumvent laws against whale and eagle hunting because we 'displaced' them when we 'invaded'.

In the USA, dark-skinned humans are sometimes given an unfair treatment by pink-skins, wether intentionally or not. Not all of us have moved on, if Southern Baptists really are as bad as you say. And how will people ever 'get over it', when they are still treated unfairly because of it.

An example of unfair treatment can be easily linked to our election of Barack Obama. That he was darker-skinned than the average American was even for a moment considered as a pro or con point shows just how little we have moved on.

People need to move on. A lot of people have and I hardly even get into a discussion about it. I see racism from both sides all the time but my circle of friends don't even get into it. I know many Democrats that refused to vote because they wouldn't vote for a Republican and they wouldn't vote for a Black man. Then if you voted for him you were considered racist because you were just voting for him out of pity that he's Black. So it was a no win situation. The right wingers are now saying that everyone opposed to the health care issue is racist. Many of us that are opposed to it voted for Obama and racism has nothing to do with it.

I just hate it when people focus on our racist past so much and slavery. We have to find a way to get over it. We can remember it without trying to give people more or less rights as a result of it. America has a problem with trying to smooth things over with the Blacks today. That's not really realistic. None of the Blacks today were slaves so it would be stupid to give them special treatment. We just need to treat everyone equally and move on.

[Violet]

The health care reform can only be opposed by being very uninformed, taking propaganda seriously, and/or by being very stupid. People that haven't moved on fall into usually 2 or more of those categories. Other than the first one, these people are very difficult to help

I do not subscribe to equal treatment however... i treat people fairly, not equally, because all of us are different. If we are equal, then we are identical, we are clones. As we are not clones, we are different, and therefore must be treated accordingly.