Faith healing couple acquitted of manslaughter charges! How can this happen?

[Pippy]

Don't change the meaning of prayer to suit your interpretation.

But I am trying to find the real meaning of the word 'prayer'. I would further that the thing I am disagreeing with is the incorrectly interpreted meaning... But that is the nature of disagreeing.

I am only trying to show that prayer can have personal value and positive results if used correctly. If you treat it as it really is. That point is in opposition to the argument made that prayer has no value. For you to say that one form of prayer has been proven not to work means you are talking about a form of prayer I am not supporting.

If the statement is made that prayer holds no value for anyone, I have to reply and rebut.

Thank you,
-Pip

[karatepig]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prayer

There, now you have the "real meaning".

It is as antiquated, superstisious ritual. It is not meditation.

[Rhizomorph13]

Karatepig,

Start with the assumption that there is no god. What are people doing that causes real uplifting feelings? I would call it meditation.

Using your source meditation seems close enough to prayer to me

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/meditation

Argument from dictionary isn't really all that valid. Here is an interesting article about the use of dictionaries:

http://www.radicalacademy.com/adlerdictionary.htm

Here is a particularly interestinig bit from the above website:

There is no more irritating fellow than the man who tries to settle an argument about communism, or justice, or liberty, by quoting from Webster. Webster and all his fellow lexicographers may be respected as authorities on word-usage, but they are not the ultimate founts of wisdom.

You can't just strip off cultural conotations from a word because it disagrees with the dictionary.

Rhizo

[Tiberius]

The belief in a being in the sky in not necessary for prayer. There is a huge difference between prayer and 'talking to yourself'.

This strikes me as quite a contradictory statement. You say that belief in a being in the sky is not necessary to prayer. Let's accept this as true for the moment, because you go on to say that there is a "huge" difference between prayer and talking to yourself.

Now if person X does not believe in gods but still prays, it is should be quite obvious that he does not believe he is praying to anyone; ergo he is talking to himself.

So either this "huge" difference does not exist, or to pray you must first believe in god.

[binny]

When I sit in my group of christian moms during prayer time (and vomit a little in my mouth) they ask god for things. Things like looking after someone, helping a person threw a difficult situation, asking for strength in whatever situation, asking for good weather. They are always asking 'god' for something. There is no meditation going on. They are simply not willing to put their own lives in their hands. This way they don't have to take the blame for anything.

As for the situation with the dead child, those 'f'ing lunatic parents will believe their prayers work and will blame the death of their daughter on god. It was gods will for her to die. Bullshit! They will not accept blame for their daughters death. And the state of Oregon failed and let them get away with child abuse, neglect and murder.

[chatpilot]

Bravo Binny !! Thank you for making it clear that prayer is not meditation but rather speaking to God usually to ask for things but it still is speaking to God.

[Pippy]

But what if I hypothetically prayed only thoughts of humble thankfulness and appreciation? That I asked for nothing other than to fully understand what I already have? And because of that mental exercise I felt better? Was able to make better decisions... I know there is a bad side to prayer, and this is a good example of it (what the thread is about). But I have to disagree when you say there is no good side, or that it has no power. It is a tool, an object. It can be as good as it can be bad. And it's moral worth only exists where there are humans to perceive it, the moral dimension is our baggage.

Prayer is not without power... It's like saying cars are useless cuz they don't fly. It can only do what it does.

@Adrian: I meant you can't associate prayer with talking to yourself as you can't associate belief with mental illness. It did turn out a contradiction though, I find that funny. I could site atheism as a mental illness, but it would hardly be appropriate.
Thanks,
-Pip

[Tiberius]

@Adrian: I meant you can't associate prayer with talking to yourself as you can't associate belief with mental illness.

I disagree. One can associate prayer with talking to yourself if there is no evidence that anyone is listening.

I could site atheism as a mental illness, but it would hardly be appropriate.

How exactly would you argue such a statement? Evidently you thought it was appropriate since you mention it.

[binny]

I want to hear this too. I'll be the first to admit I'm sometimes not all there. I'm not sure that has anything to do with being an atheist. I'm just a freak, but admittin' it's half the battle.

---

I also want to add that the christians in the Pacific NW that are praying for better weather are getting a little out of hand. It's been in the 100's here the last couple days and today it's suppose to be 101. It's time to tell god to knock it off. I'm hot and my electric bill is going to be outrageous.

[Meatball]

If I told you I can talk to god through my left shoe, you'd call me crazy. Why is it any less crazy if you take the shoe out of that statement?