Hitler believed he was doing God's work!!

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't know if I like the use of the word faith outside of a religious context, due to the fact that it's so used and abused by christians. But I think I agree with what you're trying to say.

Yeah I see your point; but I actually think 'faith' although a very powerful concept... because it teaches people to ignore evidence; the actual TRUTH of it, at the heart of it; is very very weak.

I think since you can't just treat the symptons (religion), you also need to treat the cause (faith); I think faith in anything, religion or superstition or otherwise, should be like faith in the existence of Father Christmas - you should ATLEAST grow out of it at a certain age.

[chatpilot]

I personally have always defined faith as voluntary ignorance.It's a deliberate denial of any and all facts that may contradict a personal belief or belief system such as religion.Regardless of what that belief system may be.

[Edwardo Piet]

I personally have always defined faith as voluntary ignorance.It's a deliberate denial of any and all facts that may contradict a personal belief or belief system such as religion.Regardless of what that belief system may be.

Hmmm well I certainly think a lot of kids have 'faith' just because they've been brainwashed.

And if you grow up like that...you CAN shake it off but it can be very difficult to do so.

The key misunderstanding(s) here are due to the fact that not everyone has the same definition for faith.

[chatpilot]

Well there is the biblical definition and we are speaking in a biblical context.

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Based on this definition of faith from the KJV of the bible the substance of faith are the things we hope for.And this is evident in the things not seen.In other words we hope there is a loving and caring God and based on that hope we accept it as fact although we cannot physically see it.

Voluntary ignorance.
You are right though once someone is indoctrinated in religion it is hard to wean oneself from it.Especially if it was a way of life for you.I know I lived it and thankfully I was strong enough to break free from the addiction of religion.But it was a slow and arduous process.

[imans]

what you hope for is not related to what you believe without being physically real, hoping is the issue that reveal not being balanced as one, when a belief confirm your existing form from what you understand in your reality from a deeper source of truth, this would logically get the believer to act on deeper ground and not to act more present on superficial dimension of reality like children for what they need that physical bounds to reality in order to feel real themselves

so when you use some beliefs to hope getting somethings, it surely says that those are not beliefs and they are justifications giving to some dead happenings especially for you, that you would considering to use, as any opportunist that must justify objectively an intention being right to get it, so you are not hoping receiving from who you dont limit to matters any moral support when it is only about things you are planning to get without taking the responsability for your acts

[Edwardo Piet]

Well IMO faith means strong belief that isn't supported by (atleast real) evidence.

And children often have strong belief with no evidence supporting it - just because they were brought up that way.

If you were brought up by devout christian parents you'll probably grow up to be a christian - if you were brought up a muslim you'll probablly grow up to be a muslim - if you were brought up a jew you'll probably grow up to be jewish - etc, etc, etc, same with hindus and all other children taught religiously to be religious.

The faith in children's minds can be inflated by their parents and teachers etc - IMO. And that faith is supported by the religion they are taught - so that faith grows - which makes the religion stronger - faith gets stronger - religion gets stronger -faith gets stronger - religion gets stronger -faith gets stronger - religion gets stronger - and so on. It's a slipperly slope....so it's often hard to break free from man made (or rather inflated) faith. But of course; it can be done.

[chatpilot]

That is a great analogy Evidence and it is actually a biblical concept
Mark 10:14,15
14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Faith in the biblical sense is blind trust in the Lord for all things.A child is blameless and innocent of all evil.Also,children are gullible they don't ask many questions and pretty much believe anything they see or hear especially if it is told to them by an adult they trust.

[imans]

Reality of a belief is separate from the need to justify it, the belief is your inner self but the justifications are from the ground forces that would support you in your expression of self in order to get to your interests in life,

So to me, religion seems being irrelevant in what you say or do for your existence, because it is only a justification to support your expressions in being alive, that is why it gets easily replaced by another cultural support agreement, as any political government or system that would allow a community to get a sense of freedom speech they are all alone concerned by individually

that is why i guess, religious sound hypocrits more than wrong, they are getting support from a cultural forces that they cannot use it well when atheists know much more precisely what kind of help or support they are getting to themselves

[chatpilot]

I agree religion is a justification for most folks it's a way to validate their existence.

[imans]

see Ace? chat not only got the substance of what i said but also do agree with it well