The Most Explicit Verses on the Godship of Jesus

[Minimalist]

Note that if you conclude he wasn't god, the next question is: what was he?

Better question. Was he at all?

[Rayaan]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"The Word was God"

How does that even refer to Jesus in the first place?
The "Word" (Logos) is "Jesus"?

Also, many scholars differ on the correct translations of "Theos" and "Logos" and how they relate to each other.

John 1:1 – Is Jesus “God” Whom He Was With?

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

"In Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily" is related to another verse in the same chapter which says "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him" (Colossians 1:19). Some translations use the word "Deity" instead of "Godhead." Either way, both of them are correct because the Greek word that is translated is "Theotes," which means "deity."

This "fullness dwelling in him," is most reasonably talking about the full authority and the power that was given to Jesus (not that God is literally inside Jesus). This also carries the implication that Jesus has been given all the power needed to carry out the commandments of his Father, and thus “it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,” (Colossians 1:19) and so that he "is the head of all principality and power" (Colossians 2:10) which is mentioned right after the "fullness dwellin in him" verse. And this power - godhead/godship - was given to Jesus by God the Father, as demonstrated by the following:

"For the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22)

"Then Jesus came to them and said 'All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.'" (Matthew 28:18)

And my point is, just because Jesus was given all the authority still does not mean that he is God the Father.

Rev 5
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

I've read the entire chapter, but I didn't find any mention of the name "Jesus" there. So, those verses are probably referring to God only. And Jesus didn't live "forever and ever," so I think that's another reason why those verses can't be about Jesus.

Even if they refer to Jesus (for argument's sake), it still doesn't imply that he is God. Why?

Because all the "blessings, honor, power, and glory" that it speaks of should be understood in the context of Jesus having full authority given to him by God the Father (which I explained just a while ago). This is further supported by another verse where Jesus himself says "By myself I can do nothing," because all powers of judgement and authority was given to him by the Father.

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5:30)

Yes, I gathered that. There are verses that can be read to indicate that Jesus isn't God. In the end, the conclusion is to some extent opinion.

I agree.

Note that if you conclude he wasn't god, the next question is: what was he?

A man who was sent by the only true God:

"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3)

"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." (John 8:15-18)

Those verses (and many more), tell us that Jesus Christ was sent by God the Father, and thus they all indicate a clear distinction between Jesus Christ and God.

John 17:3 is especially explicit when it says "the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." If Jesus Christ is the only true God - meaning they are both the same exact thing - then the word "and" in that verse which separate the two would be redundant (and useless). And the verse could have just stated that Jesus "sent himself into this world," but the Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Rather, it says that the Father sent him (Jesus), which also means that Jesus had a beginning.

I'll be back with more on this.

[Minimalist]

A man who was sent by the only true God:

Evidence for that or just more of your baseless assertions?

[Rayaan]

No evidence, but I am simply discussing in this thread who Jesus claimed to be and/or who he was as portrayed in the Gospels.

Nothing else.

[Minimalist]

We have no idea what the originals of these gospels may have said. All we have are the final edited versions.

[John V]

I'll be back with more on this.

Do as you like, of course, but don't do so on my account, as I'm not interested enough to even respond to your last post. Also, while some of your arguments can be made by an honest reader, I find your protests on "the Word" and "the Lamb" to be disingenuous.

[idunno]

Hello Ryaan,

the Word becomes flesh in verse 14 of John 1. Would you be interested in a very good downloadable talk on Jesus as the Word?

[Rayaan]

Do as you like, of course, but don't do so on my account, as I'm not interested enough to even respond to your last post. Also, while some of your arguments can be made by an honest reader, I find your protests on "the Word" and "the Lamb" to be disingenuous.

But, you can't read my mind.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "don't do so on my account." Don't do what on your account? You're talking about the rep I gave you?

the Word becomes flesh in verse 14 of John 1. Would you be interested in a very good downloadable talk on Jesus as the Word?

Perhaps it does refer to Jesus.

But, even if it does, can't the meaning of that verse apply to Adam and Eve also and not just to Jesus (i.e. that they were made flesh through the "Word")?

[idunno]

Not if context has anything to say about it. I'm pretty open to looking at different interpretations of a given passage, but I always go with the one that fits the context best.

Here's that link:

http://www.theologynetwork.org/studying-...of-god.htm

REALLY good

[Rayaan]

That's a long talk. But thanks. I'll listen to it, soon.

Meanwhile, here's something for you, too:

Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is Not God - Joshua Evans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc