My dumbass parents doubt evolution

[Cyberman]

Since my curiosity, before it got rushed off to the feline severe trauma ward, has been piqued by 'overhearing' via others' posts what would normally be hidden from me (thanks, guys), I feel obliged to respond. Without natural forces such as gravity, atomic repulsion, and friction which for some reason seems to have been overlooked, all of which are known and understood, it would be impossible to pick up a stone either by hand or lever.

[Aractus]

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Physics. Forces. Strong nuclear. Weak nuclear. Gravity. Magnetic.

There is force which I call “soul” that can be proven to exist by scientific method. Take a rock and drop it. Physics can predict quite accurately exactly what will happen to the rock.

The rock will obey gravity, land on the floor and remain there until……………

Until what?

Until I walk over and pick it up. I can lift the rock using my own free will/volition.

Physics cannot predict when or EVEN IF I will pick up the rock.

Physics has no name for the unpredictable and VERY REAL force acting upon the matter of my shoulder, my arm, my hand, the rock in the EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION of gravity.

It is not hormones – hormones are matter.
It is not brain – brain cells are matter. Matter has no free will.

So what exactly is the name of the force (which acts in a way science cannot predict) that lifts the rock doing the opposite of what gravity intended?

---

OK, let's pick apart your argument for a moment. If you drop the rock, and a monkey walks over and picks it up is it because the monkey has a "soul" too? Of course not, they only have "free will". But free will is not a requirement for life. Plants, fungi and bacteria live a happy productive existence devoid of having any free will. So does physics also fail to predict how they behave?

No, not really. You can't use Newton's Laws of Motion, or Quantum Mechanics, or Crystallography or General Relativity or the three laws of Thermodynamics or the laws of Chemistry or Geophysical laws... but guess what you can use? Mathematics and Biological laws!

No one knows exactly what DNA is, by the way, but that doesn't mean we can't derive a lot of information from it. No one knows exactly how free will arises from a complex neural network, but again it doesn't mean we can't derive a lot of information from brain cells. Like DNA, we have categorized the different sections in the Brain and can appreciate where certain functions are from.

So I disagree, physics can and does predict group behaviours. Life is just a highly complicated system, but that itself doesn't mean the system can't be studied scientifically and "laws" (or as I often prefer to say "rules") theorized.

[Kirbmarc]

t. No one knows exactly how free will arises from a complex neural network

No one knows exactly what "free will" is. Most neuroscientist think that what we call "free will" is simply a combination of belief that one's action are free and ignorance of the causes of such actions.

[Brakeman]

No one knows exactly what DNA is, by the way,

WTH! Of course we know what DNA is. Have you been reading 40 year old textbooks or something? What a silly comment!

[Cyberman]

Are we talking about that self-replicating molecule, made up of four nitrogen-based nucleotides - guanine, adenine, thymine, and cytosine - and which looks like this:

?

I agree, we don't know what the hell that stuff is...

[Lion IRC]

Physics. Forces. Strong nuclear. Weak nuclear. Gravity. Magnetic.

There is force which I call “soul” that can be proven to exist by scientific method. Take a rock and drop it. Physics can predict quite accurately exactly what will happen to the rock.

The rock will obey gravity, land on the floor and remain there until……………

Until what?

Until I walk over and pick it up. I can lift the rock using my own free will/volition.

Physics cannot predict when or EVEN IF I will pick up the rock.

Physics has no name for the unpredictable and VERY REAL force acting upon the matter of my shoulder, my arm, my hand, the rock in the EXACT OPPOSITE DIRECTION of gravity.

It is not hormones – hormones are matter.
It is not brain – brain cells are matter. Matter has no free will.

So what exactly is the name of the force (which acts in a way science cannot predict) that lifts the rock doing the opposite of what gravity intended?

OK, let's pick apart your argument for a moment.

I dont think you understood my *cough* ''argument''

If you drop the rock, and a monkey walks over and picks it up is it because the monkey has a "soul" too? Of course not, they only have "free will".

OK we can use a monkey versus gravity rather than a man versus gravity if you like. No biggie. Gravity cant and doesnt ''decide'' to pick up rocks. Are you claiming that monekys and rocks are both equally lacking in volition? That physics can predict the act of a monkey deciding to pick up a rock and throw it? Can the laws of physics predict which direction the monkey will throw the rock? How hard the monkey will throw it? Why the rock must be thrown at that exact point in time rather than 30 seconds earlier or 10 minutes later?

Do you understand that the biggest hurdle standing in the way of a Unified Theory of Everything is the INABILITY of physics to predict everything that will necessarily happen? (No absolute time. No absolute relative position.)

The only certain principle is UNCERTAINTY.

And you're gonna come in here and try to tell me that primate behaviour (pick up rock and throw it) is subject to predictable laws of physics?

...But free will is not a requirement for life.

Who said it was? Not me.

... Plants, fungi and bacteria live a happy productive existence devoid of having any free will.

How would you know? Who told you that? Can you speak to mushrooms?

No one knows exactly what DNA is...
No one knows exactly how free will arises...
Life is just a highly complicated system...

[LastPoet]

It must be hard for you Daniel, to have to split into double standards in the face of overwelming evidence. Alas, your pride prevents it so

[The Grand Nudger]

OK we can use a monkey versus gravity

OR- as Daniel suggested, we can use a monkey vs a human. Carelessly exchanging the actors and backdrops in your example practically ensures you won't be able to draw a meaningful point or criticism. Especially if you want to claim this is some sort of "scientific this or that". You have to keep your constants.

rather than a man versus gravity if you like. No biggie. Gravity cant and doesnt ''decide'' to pick up rocks. Are you claiming that monekys and rocks are both equally lacking in volition?

No, I think (if I may be so bold Daniel) that he is suggesting that both monkeys and human beings are equally capable of performing this act you feel is scientific proof of a force you call a soul. Why do I think this? Because it's exactly what his example shows, and exactly what his example was intended to show. Now, we could just roll with it, when presented with this example..and say "Okay..yeah, it appears that monkeys also possess this mysterious force..this soul. But we can't do that can we..because we aren't trying to reach a conclusion..we already have one. This isn't exactly uncommon in discussions of faith...but it is pretty bad form if we're claiming science.

How would you know? Who told you that? Can you speak to mushrooms?

I would actually ask how one knew that fungi didn't have free will, if it exists and if it's some mysterious property of a soul and not the effect (or illusion) of a completely natural structure like a central nervous system. If it's the former, as opposed to the latter...there's nothing that we know about fungus that can rule out a soul - once a soul has been ruled in..of course. That they are productive should be obvious...happy...meh..again, if it's all souls then why not? Besides, fungus can lift a rock with your lever too, just takes them longer to accomplish it. Under a specific set of conditions...actually..I can practically guarantee you that if no one else ever gets around to lifting that rock..fungus will handle the job.

You created a scenario in which the scientific proof of your "mysterious force" was little more than interaction between two objects. A rock could fall on your lever and lift a rock....as yet another hilarious example. In the end, this is all fun and games though, because nothing about the example and subsequent comments you offered is "scientific"...even in the loosest sense of the word.

[Lion IRC]

... A rock could fall on your lever and lift a rock...

A rock doesnt decide to fall.
Thats the difference.

The rock is predictably going to obey the force called gravity.

Now, if I decide to walk over and pick UP the rock lifting it in exactly the OPPOSITE direction then there must be a (different) force acting on that rock which is opposite to gravity.

Furthermore, the force lifting the rock (me) acts unpredictably both in magnitude, direction and timing - unlike the force called gravity which by definition is constant.

[Brakeman]

A rock doesnt decide to fall.
Thats the difference.
..
Furthermore, the force lifting the rock (me) acts unpredictably both in magnitude, direction and timing - unlike the force called gravity which by definition is constant.

So could a computer controlled robot "decide" to drop the rock?
Humans are nothing more than a very sophisticated electro chemical robot. We can be very predictable, we just have so many contributing factors that it is difficult to predict. Break us down to the cellular level and we are exceedingly easy to predict.