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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:01 am
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 11:02 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 28, 2012 at 4:45 am)Rayaan Wrote: I don't think that a program or a machine could ever be self-aware or have a consciousness in the same way that we do. I think that the level of self-referentiality that exists in the human mind is much deeper than the level of self-referentiality that exists in machines and/or computer programs.
Why the deference to "the same way that we do"? Is our route to consciousness or self awareness the only route? Even so, suppose our theoretical AI machine was built using organic materials...now how different are we?
(November 28, 2012 at 10:58 am)whateverist Wrote: I agree that machines are not going to accidently become aware. If it is to happen at all we would have to make a very purposeful effort.
Oh? Is that how we became aware?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:12 am
(November 28, 2012 at 4:45 am)Rayaan Wrote: (November 28, 2012 at 1:28 am)whateverist Wrote: Even so, is there any reason to think a program will ever experience subjective states or become self aware or have an identity crisis or be said to exhibit wisdom that does not directly reflect that of its programmer? I see that as a very different question than asking whether a machine could be programmed in such a way as to fool us into thinking these things are going on. I'm skeptical to the point of finding the idea absurd.
I don't think that a program or a machine could ever be self-aware or have a consciousness in the same way that we do. I think that the level of self-referentiality that exists in the human mind is much deeper than the level of self-referentiality that exists in machines and/or computer programs.
Interestingly, however, I've read in a few articles that a computer program can be thought to have consciousness - or a mind of it's own, so to speak - depending on how you define the word "conscious". There are certain definitions of consciousness in relation to computational properties that, when applied to the behavior of a computer program, the program itself can be considered to be "conscious" or "self-aware." You can see some of those definitions and their applications on page four in the link below:
Conscious Machines and Consciousness Oriented Programming
Thanks for the link. Gotta get off to work just now but the first sentence is telling:
"..we investigate the following question: how could you
write such computer programs that can work like conscious beings?"
How exactly do conscious beings 'work'? We understand lots about how a human body works and we've mapped the brain to find those places where a tweek will create a twitch or a severence can create a particular sort of dysfunction. Even so, I am not impressed that we are very close at all to understanding how conscious beings work.
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:34 am
As a very old man who has been banging the rocks together for a long while, I has seen some predictions come true, other things appear which we had no notion of, and things which definitely would happen in the next couple of weeks never come about. That said I don't see any problem with one day self aware intelligence being manufactured, but I feel it is more of a software problem to produce it than a hardware problem, and what would be the point? It would be expensive and there are plenty of sentient beings laying about now that could be put to good use far more cost efectively, on the other hand I LOVE Bender!
![[Image: 220px-Bender_Rodriguez.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=upload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa6%2FBender_Rodriguez.png%2F220px-Bender_Rodriguez.png)
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 11:40 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Interstellar navigators Jon. More down to home, pilots and operators that never sleep, never tire, never need to be fed. Educators that persist indefinitely, absorbing and cataloging knowledge and relaying it with the experience of centuries on the job. Soldiers not constrained by our biological restrictions, whose experience and expertise can be transferred or duplicated beyond the frame that carries them if that frame is damaged or lost. Just to name a few things.
As a side note, we seem to think that wisdom comes with age in our cases. If AI were similar to ourselves but immortal...we'd be out of the wisdom business...wouldn't we?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:44 am
They would not need to be self aware, those would only be tools designed to complete a job or number of jobs, like an aircraft guidance system, or an automatic cataloguing system.
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:49 am
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 11:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Not quite for the types of performance I'm suggesting. Autopilots and catalogs are incapable of availing themselves of experience (at least directly) or leveraging that experience in the completion of a task (specifically tasks which they are unfamiliar with). The ability to "experience" something..itself...would seem to imply "some" sort of self-awareness.
Now sure, we could keep our thumbs down on dumb systems and lend them the experience we have - but this assumes that we'll be there to do so..at least one of those occupations I listed has a huge barrier to this being possible, but why not cut out the middleman? Streamline the process, as it were. If an aircraft has a failure that was not programmed into it's auto-pilot..I don't want to rely on some programmer just happening to be there...just happening to have a solution...and just happening to be capable of re-writing the program in time to avert disaster.
(in that scenario above..btw, even if we were incapable of producing AI which exceeds our own ability to process data....it would still not be prone to panic...as we are..or at least it wouldn't -have- to be)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 11:53 am
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 11:57 am by jonb.)
(November 28, 2012 at 11:37 am)Rhythm Wrote: As a side note, we seem to think that wisdom comes with age in our cases. If AI were similar to ourselves but immortal...we'd be out of the wisdom business...wouldn't we? Actually most great work, inventions, art is done around the age of thirty to thirty three. would say this is partly because the individual still has enough youthful arrogance to ignore wiser voices. Old men just seem to say stupid things less often than the young, because they have learnt to not fight every fight.
(November 28, 2012 at 11:49 am)Rhythm Wrote: Not quite for the types of performance I'm suggesting. Autopilots and catalogs are incapable of availing themselves of experience (at least directly) or leveraging that experience in the completion of a task (specifically tasks which they are unfamiliar with). The ability to "experience" something..itself...would seem to imply "some" sort of self-awareness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeVUOauMawg
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 12:14 pm
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 12:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A perfect example of a blurred line.
(love those little guys btw- imagine a moment in time when we can cut those wires)
The question I would ask (not necessarily directed at you), is this effect somehow "less legitimate" than a similar effect in a human child? How so? Is it difficult to imagine how we might improve on the effect with respect to how we might perceive it. Say we packed that Mini with C4, and gave Asimo "eyes" that could see through the exterior. I like the idea of a "machine" that could handle the task of recognizing explosives which have been designed to escape human detection(so does the military).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 1:31 pm
(This post was last modified: November 28, 2012 at 1:33 pm by jonb.)
What use could a self aware being be to you? if you made an intelligence which was self aware, why would it not be selfish? So the drive would be to create a thing that you could control, and as such it would be a tool, unless it was self aware in which case, it would not see the situation necessary from your point of view.
In which case
![[Image: bender_rules_by_theundead01.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=fc06.deviantart.net%2Ffs28%2Fi%2F2008%2F085%2F5%2F2%2Fbender_rules_by_theundead01.jpg)
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RE: Will AI ever = conciousness or sentience?
November 28, 2012 at 1:41 pm
(November 28, 2012 at 4:45 am)Rayaan Wrote: I don't think that a program or a machine could ever be self-aware or have a consciousness in the same way that we do.
How does that mean they will not be self aware or have consciousness? Just because it might be different does not mean that it won't be comparable.
Quote:I think that the level of self-referentiality that exists in the human mind is much deeper than the level of self-referentiality that exists in machines and/or computer programs.
Currently I'd agree, but if a computer program was to become every bit as complex as DNA and the human mind what's stopping it from becoming as 'self referential' as us?
A fly isn't very self-referential is it? But that's because it's not at a similar complexity or development as a human is. Neither is a toaster. My view is that if a machine were ever created with relatively the same complexity as us, then there's no reason for it not to experience consciousness in a comparable way to what we do, if it were designed to do so.
I think it's more how you define sentience.
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