Do we own our own lives? A discussion on the morality of suicide and voluntary slavery.

[Kirbmarc]

A few days ago I was having a discussion with a very religious friend of mine, and we found ourselves talking about the morality of suicide.

Personally I don't think that suicide is a morally deplorable act. I never had any serious suicidal thoughts, since I love life and its endless possibilities, but I can understand how a person could rationally come to the conclusion to end his life, and according to my opinion it should be within his or her rights to do so.

My friend accepted that his religious argument against suicide (i.e. "god is the real owner of your life") doesn't work if you don't believe in a god, but he brought up a really interesting argument based only on rationality alone.

He argued that if we reject slavery we claim that a human lives can't be owned or used as objects. According to my friend this means that you can't end your life because it doesn't belong to you (regardless of the existence of a god who owns it).

I countered his argument with the idea that every human being owns his own life. We reject slavery not because lives can't be owned, but because the lives of a person belongs to him and not to another person.

My friend replied that if I were right, we should approve voluntary slavery. If we own our lives, we should be able to sell them, like any other item that we own.

I didn't (and still don't) have a strong argument against this conclusion, but I don't really like the idea of voluntary slavery being morallly acceptable.

So I thought to bring these questions to the forums and to see what other people think of it. Is suicide morally acceptable? Do we own our own lives? And if we do, can we sell them to someone else?

[Something completely different]

My friend replied that if I were right, we should approve voluntary slavery. If we own our lives, we should be able to sell them, like any other item that we own.

I didn't (and still don't) have a strong argument against this conclusion, but I don't really like the idea of voluntary slavery being morallly acceptable.

So I thought to bring these questions to the forums and to see what other people think of it. Is suicide morally acceptable? Do we own our own lives? And if we do, can we sell them to someone else?

Most suicides happen due to mental illness illness -( in most cases meaning depression )- and a person whos judgement is blurred is "non compus mentis". therefor "not has a personality during illness" therefor not intervening would be a failure to assist a person in danger and therefor irresponsible.

A person at full responsibility who chooses to take his life, whilest suffering from a mortal illnes such as cancer or whos medical condition makes life "not worth living" should have the right to take his life.

When talking about a completly healthy person who would want to go into slavery or commit suicide.

The only thing I can offer is Arthur Shopenhauers ethiks of sympaty\pitty and his hedgehog analogy.

[Annik]

Everyone has the rights to their own life, even the right to take their own lives. I think it's our responsibility as a society to try and make sure it never comes to that, though.

[Kirbmarc]

Most suicides happen due to mental illness illness -( in most cases meaning depression )- and a person whos judgement is blurred is "non compus mentis". therefor not intervening would be a failure to assist a person in danger and therefor irresponsible.

This is true, and indeed most suicides motivated by selfish reasons are due to some kind of mental illness. But what about a person who rationally decides to end his life even if his life isn't threatened by pain and suffering? What if, for example, you were rationally sure that your existence is a danger to others?

Let's say you are a carrier of a (hypothetical) disease that won't kill you, but that will infect anyone that comes in contact with you and will kill 25% of them. Would it be morally acceptable for you to commit suicide in order to spare countless others from probable death?

And what about suicide as a rational act of protest against a tyrannical regime (i.e. political martyrdom)?

[genkaus]

A few days ago I was having a discussion with a very religious friend of mine, and we found ourselves talking about the morality of suicide.

Personally I don't think that suicide is a morally deplorable act. I never had any serious suicidal thoughts, since I love life and its endless possibilities, but I can understand how a person could rationally come to the conclusion to end his life, and according to my opinion it should be within his or her rights to do so.

My friend accepted that his religious argument against suicide (i.e. "god is the real owner of your life") doesn't work if you don't believe in a god, but he brought up a really interesting argument based only on rationality alone.

He argued that if we reject slavery we claim that a human lives can't be owned or used as objects. According to my friend this means that you can't end your life because it doesn't belong to you (regardless of the existence of a god who owns it).

I countered his argument with the idea that every human being owns his own life. We reject slavery not because lives can't be owned, but because the lives of a person belongs to him and not to another person.

My friend replied that if I were right, we should approve voluntary slavery. If we own our lives, we should be able to sell them, like any other item that we own.

I didn't (and still don't) have a strong argument against this conclusion, but I don't really like the idea of voluntary slavery being morallly acceptable.

So I thought to bring these questions to the forums and to see what other people think of it. Is suicide morally acceptable? Do we own our own lives? And if we do, can we sell them to someone else?

First of all, to your friend - No, not a chance. Even if god did exist, he would not own my life - nor that of any other conscious and sentient being. Your right of your life is the social recognition of your identity as a sapient being - negation of the right does not negate the quality.

Also, if it were to be accepted that god was the owner, then all sorts of slavery could be justified by invoking the name of god. Wait a minute - that's already been done - for centuries, in fact.

Now, regarding your questions - just because something is immoral does not make it legally unacceptable. I consider living your life the best way possible (yes, that is subjective, but not the subject of discussion) to be the moral thing to do. Thus, as a thumb rule, I would consider both suicide and voluntary slavery to be immoral. However, because I accept that every person does own his/her own life, I recognize their right to end it or sell it as they please.

But the concept of voluntary slavery is much trickier than that. A person cannot truly become the property of another as long as he remains a self-aware, sapient being. All he can do is loan his time and his services to the will of another. And this is something we do all the time - from following orders from our employers which we'd rather not do to following our family's wishes. The only way in which slavery is different from all the other forms of employment is when it comes to the application of force. If the slave does not want to do what his master wishes, then the master has the option of using force to compel him. And as soon as that enters the picture, any voluntary aspect of "slavery" would disappear. So yes, I support voluntary slavery - but how is it any different from employment?

[Welsh cake]

Ownership of ourselves? Gods? These are nonsensical and irrelevant to the discussion of ending one's existence.

Do we have the right to die? Yes.

Does the state and religious devout recognise that right? No.

[Faith No More]

This is a complex issue that is near and dear to my heart, because not only have I lost a friend to suicide, I have attempted to take my own life. I struggle trying to reconcile my beliefs of a human owning their own life and my personal experiences.

Suicide is too complicated of a topic to simply say that it either is or isn't moral, and my personal philosophy is that the consequences and movitavtions of an act need to be taken into consideration when deciding whether it is moral.

I think that a person does have the right to take their own life if their qualitiy of life is so terrible that being alive is actually doing more harm to them than if they were dead. The problem with this, however, is how do we determine what measure of quality of life is acceptable to commit suicide? I think is the biggest hurdle people that are pro euthanasia have to overcome.

Then there is the issue of recovery. Say two people are suffering the same amount, but one has a 50/50 chance of recovery while the other has a significantly lower chance. This is important when we get into mental illness, because most of them are manageable if the person can understand it well enough and put forth the effort. If euthenasia had been completely legal, I would be dead, as I could never see myself getting to the point I am at with my depression.

Like I said, it's a complicated issue, and I will post more later.

[Jackalope]

The problem with this, however, is how do we determine what measure of quality of life is acceptable to commit suicide?

In my view, we don't. Only the person who's life it is in question has that right.

The hard question that I am wont to ask is this: Why are we as a culture so uncomfortable with the logical conclusions that result from the concept of people owning thier own lives?

[Kirbmarc]

So yes, I support voluntary slavery - but how is it any different from employment?

The main difference that with voluntary slavery you waive your rights. So basically in voluntary slavery you accept to have violence used on you. If you own your own life, then you should have the right to sell it.

For example you could be a masochist who enjoys being physically abused. Or you'd like to be killed in a specific fashion. If you own your own life, why shouldn't you have the right to ask someone else to kill you? I'm trying to come up with a cogent argument against this objection, but I can't find a good one.

[Faith No More]

In my view, we don't. Only the person who's life it is in question has that right.

So, do you think that someone who has been depressed for two months and someone who has terminal cancer have an equal right to end their lives?

The hard question that I am wont to ask is this: Why are we as a culture so uncomfortable with the logical conclusions that result from the concept of people owning thier own lives?

What would you do if you came home and one of you loved ones was dying on the floor from an overdose? You can call an ambulance and save their life, or you can acknowledge their right to take their own life and let them die. It's that instinct that most people would feel in that situation which makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion.