Compositional anaylsis of the Gospel of Mark

[Minimalist]

Right in the middle of a thread where Christians are being told (by atheists) that they dont understand their own scripture.

Your problem, douchebag, is that you think that shit is real. But please try to avoid telling jews how to be jews. In case you don't know it, you built your whole fucking religion on their foundation....poor as it was.

[Lion IRC]

Lion please go and rethink your theology.

FAIL. Salvation comes from God

It's not my theology. Take it up with this Guy.

You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews..

WRONG. Christians are not Jews, and are not defined by their ethnic heritage.

Sorry to keep dragging you back to scripture. But...

''There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.''
Galatians 3:28

Yeah!

Paul was Jewish.
Peter was Jewish.
Jesus was Jewish. (I think He understood scripture pretty well.)
Moses was Jewish.

BTW, are you circumcised?

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How many Jews will there be in the Kingdom of God?
How many Anglicans?

Oh dear, you can't be serious Lion? The messiah has come from the Jews and not the Samaritans or Greeks.

The Messiah HAS come from the Jews. He IS our salvation. John 4:22 nails it. No need for me to rethink anything.

I suppose next you'll tell me Abraham, Lot and Job were Jews too?

Whats the difference in God's eyes between the righteousness of Lot, Job, Cornelius, Abraham, Isaiah, Noah, Simeon, Paul, Barnabas...

[Aractus]

That wasn't my question Lion, the question is do you think that Abraham, Lot and Job were Jews?

[KichigaiNeko]

I hate the title of the thread, to me this vernacular, "Compositional anaylsis".

It's jsut so theists can feel "special" and "intelligent" Brian.

Don't stress it. They know not what they do... erm to coin a phrase.

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And yes Min is right.

Theist don't know their own scripture because they are too busy being elitist.

[Jesus.of.Nazareth]

I'd still like to know what you mean by the term "historical jesus."

It is a motto in New Testament scholarship to distinguish the Jesus of history from the Christ of faith. The position of mainstream scholarship is that a historical figure of Jesus has been exaggerated by myth and legend. Historical Jesus rearch attempts to get behind the Christ of faith to the Jesus of history.

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I'd like to know what he means by "imminent" in the context of "the return of the Kingdom of God". Two thousand years and counting...

It means that the historical Jesus, like the Baptizer, Paul, James and John the Divine expected the coming of the Messianic kingdom within their lifetimes.

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I'd like to know why he thinks the historical Jesus only taught men about the Kingdom.

I don't quite understand. Who else would he teach? As for teaching about himself, he customarily used the circumlocution in the 3rd person, "son of man." But I strongly suspect that he used this term as a double entendre, meaning both "son of man" or "mortal being" and "Son of Man," the apocalyptic figure mentioned in Daniel 7:13f. I find that the historical Jesus cloaked his teachings about himself and his messianic mission because it was politically expedient to do so due the numerous messianic pretenders who had emerged and tried to inaugurate the Kindom of God through violence. Thus, he favored speaking in parables, another obsurantist technique.

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How do you explain the Messianic prophecy in Isaiah 53?

I regard the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 as referring to Zerubbabel, who, due to the rebuilding of the temple in 521 BCE, ignited an apocalyptic fever fueled by Haggai the prophet:

2 Speak now to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of , and to Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, and say, 3 Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory? How does it look to you now? Is it not in your sight as nothing? 4 Yet now take courage, O Zerubbabel, says Yahweh; take courage, O Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; take courage, all you people of the land, says Yahweh; work, for I am with you, says Yahweh of Armies, 5 according to the promise that I made you when you came out of Egypt. My spirit abides among you; do not fear. 6 For thus says Yahweh of Armies: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasure of all nations shall come, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Yahweh of Armies. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says Yahweh of Armies. 9 The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former, says Yahweh of Armies; and in this place I will give prosperity, says the Yahweh of Armies.

And also this prophecy from Haggai:

20 The word of Yahweh came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, 21 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I am about to shake the heavens and the earth, 22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms; I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders; and the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his fellow. 23 On that day, says the LORD of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of She-al'ti-el, says Yahweh, and make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you, says Yahweh of Armies."

Zerubbabel mysteriously disappears from the historic record. Apparently, Zerubbabel believed Haggai and in some way offended the Persian government and was thus tried and executed, just as Jesus offended the Romans and suffered the same fate.

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Great another hit-and-run post. Let me guess as soon as I ask the simplest question of the OP he'll disappear until his next thread. Do us a favour, if you aren't willing to discuss and argue for your argument on here don't bother posting it to begin with!

Sir, I had problems logging in. What comments do you wish to make?

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I hold that the historical Jesus taught men about the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God, that is, the Messianic Kingdom. Note here, that contrary to the Jesus Seminar and Funk, the historical Jesus did not think in terms of a "spiritual kingdom," but rather thought in terms of a material kingdom and in this sense subscribed to the common and traditional belief. I take the references to the royal "Son of God" recalls Psalm 2, likely a coronation Psalm in which subjected peoples are warned not to rebel or such would be swiftly and soundly punished. With Matthew's "Kingdom of the Heavens," we see a trend toward spiritualizing a presupposed material concept of the kingdom, due to the former failing to be realized. Thus the Christian adjustment that the kingdom of God was "within you" and the innovative distinction between a first and second coming of the Lord, shares the same concern. In so doing, they created the "Church Age" dispensation, in which the Gospel was to be preached to the entire world before the "second" coming would occur.

Okay, let's start here. Psalm 2, a prophetic Psalm.

• Psalm 2:7-9:
  7. I will tell of the decree:
  The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
  today I have begotten you.
  8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
  and the ends of the earth your possession.
  9. You shall break them with a rod of iron
  and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

Why you, a sceptic, would bring this up is beyond me.

• Ps 2:7 --> Mark 1:11: And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
  
• Ps 2:8 --> Mark 1:21-28: And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him. And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him.” And at once his fame spread everywhere throughout all the surrounding region of Galilee.
  
• Ps 2:9 see Revelation 2:27, 12:5, 19:15.
  

• Psalm 2:10-12:
  Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
  be warned, O rulers of the earth.
  Serve the Lord with fear,
  and rejoice with trembling.
  Kiss the Son,
  lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
  for his wrath is quickly kindled.
  Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Now let's look at the last part here of Psalm 2:12...

• Matthew 11:29-30: Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
  
• Matt 11:27-28 (also in reference to Psalm 2:8): All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
  
• Mark 1:29-34: And immediately he left the synagogue and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. Now Simon's mother-in-law lay ill with a fever, and immediately they told him about her. And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and the fever left her, and she began to serve them.
  That evening at sundown they brought to him all who were sick or oppressed by demons. And the whole city was gathered together at the door. And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. And he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.
  
• John 14:6-7: Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
  
• Mark 13:13: And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
  
• Mark 8:38: For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
  
• Matthew 10:32-33: So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
  
• Mark 8:38: For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
  
• John 5:36-37: But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,
  
• John 6:35-40: Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
  
• John 6:44-48: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life.
  
• John 10:17-18: For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
  
• John 16:23: In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you.
  

We could go on and on and on like this.

• Daniel 7:13-14: “I saw in the night visions,
  and behold, with the clouds of heaven
  there came one like a son of man,
  and he came to the Ancient of Days
  and was presented before him.
  14. And to him was given dominion
  and glory and a kingdom,
  that all peoples, nations, and languages
  should serve him;
  his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
  which shall not pass away,
  and his kingdom one
  that shall not be destroyed.

So...

• Mark 2:10: But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—
  
• Mark 2:28: So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”
  
• Mark 8:31: And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.
  
• Mark 8:38: For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
  
• Mark 9:9: And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
  
• Mark 9:12: And he said to them, “Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?
  
• Mark 9:31: for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”
  
• Mark 10:33: saying, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles.
  
• Mark 10:45: For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
  
• Mark 13:26: And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
  
• Mark 14:21: For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
  
• Mark 14:41: And he came the third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
  

Jesus makes it clear that the Kingdom of God is in the afterlife. And he is consistent on it.

Sir,

I think I have demonstrated the existence of Mark vis a vis pMark. Also, there is the task of distinguishing the Jesus of history from the Christ of faith in doing Gospel and historical Jesus research. Proof-texting is academically naive.

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I hate the title of the thread, to me this vernacular, "Compositional anaylsis". If we all know holy books are mere comic books do not fuel the believer by using such implied academic phrases.

Why do we need a fancy way of saying we are merely doing a book review, especially one that is no better or real than Batman or Superman?

Language is a code, and while we can and should have a more elevated way of communication than "See Spot Run", I find it better to talk in laymens terms when it comes to holy books and simply call them what they are. You don't need to get past even the first page of the bible to know it is a myth.

So as far as my review of Mark, it deserves no more special weight than any other book in the bible. A person back then wrote some shit, probably believed it, copied the ideas from other writers, added and subtracted shit, and successfully marketed it.

Ultimately there was no magic baby or magical death. There were people who wrote shit and sold it because they wanted it to be true.

Compositional analysis is required because many ancient texts show signs of editorial manipulation such as the adding of material. This is in strong evidence that this is true for both the literature of the Old and New Testaments. Also, the passage in Josephus mentioning Christ has, in the view of many, received editorial interpolations. So your objection to the term seems uninformed regarding the critical interpretation of ancient texts.

[Brian37]

I hate the title of the thread, to me this vernacular, "Compositional anaylsis".

It's jsut so theists can feel "special" and "intelligent" Brian.

Don't stress it. They know not what they do... erm to coin a phrase.

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And yes Min is right.

Theist don't know their own scripture because they are too busy being elitist.

Well the feeling of "elitist" is a human psychology, not a label issue. Our species did evolve with a childish need to feel special, like when a baby smiles after getting the mother's nipple.

And I wouldn't say that theists don't know their scripture. I'd say that while many don't bother reading their holy books, the ones who do don't agree and the zealots and moderates and liberals who do know their scripture, cant understand that there was life before the invention of their myth, and the universe will continue long after our species goes extinct.

[Jesus.of.Nazareth]

It's jsut so theists can feel "special" and "intelligent" Brian.

Don't stress it. They know not what they do... erm to coin a phrase.

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And yes Min is right.

Theist don't know their own scripture because they are too busy being elitist.

I do not hold to any dogmatism if you implying that I hold to some idea is authoratative.

Well the feeling of "elitist" is a human psychology, not a label issue. Our species did evolve with a childish need to feel special, like when a baby smiles after getting the mother's nipple.

And I wouldn't say that theists don't know their scripture. I'd say that while many don't bother reading their holy books, the ones who do don't agree and the zealots and moderates and liberals who do know their scripture, cant understand that there was life before the invention of their myth, and the universe will continue long after our species goes extinct.

Am I interrupting? It appears so.

[Aractus]

Sir,

I think I have demonstrated the existence of Mark vis a vis pMark. Also, there is the task of distinguishing the Jesus of history from the Christ of faith in doing Gospel and historical Jesus research. Proof-texting is academically naive.

No you haven't demonstrated it, you've theorized it. There's a big difference. Your pMark is exactly what you choose to make it, and you can cherry pick from Mark all you want in order to arrive at it. The title of this thread is "Compositional analysis of Gospel of Mark" NOT "Compositional analysis of pMark". You had your chance to choose between them when you made the thread.

Here is your original claim:

Note here, that contrary to the Jesus Seminar and Funk, the historical Jesus did not think in terms of a "spiritual kingdom," but rather thought in terms of a material kingdom and in this sense subscribed to the common and traditional belief.

As I clearly demonstrated to you, everything Jesus talks about is consistent with the Kingdom of God being in Heaven, in the afterlife. Strictly speaking that isn't a purely "spiritual" kingdom, but it isn't of this Earth that we know either. The majority of what I gave you is all from Mark, with a few other passages that clearly show the consistency all the way to John. You have clear examples like Mark 13:13b "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." To the END. End of what? Life in this world, correct?

If you manage to get yourself unbanned, I'll be more than willing to discuss these matters with you, but it looks like your hit-and-run preaching/posting was not appreciated by the Mod's here!