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The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 10:59 am
This is not designed to some attempt at discussion on the belief in GOD so please drop your guard a little bit. I wan't you to make (what in you belief system is ) a stupendously stupid assumption that the Transendental personal GOD of the theist exists to see whether from that position one could answer the...
Can God make a rock He couldn't lift?
By saying yes and he has already done so it's called Free Will.
Qualified by saying before He made it He being omniscient already seen the results and decided the results merited creating said rock. He remains All powerful as the He can lift the stone but the only constraint is His Divine Nature.
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 11:57 am
You're misunderstanding the point of the question. It isn't can god make a rock he chooses not to lift. The question is can god make a rock he is unable to make, and the relevance is that either answer nullifies god's omnipotence. So, no, he does not remain all powerful.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm
(January 5, 2013 at 10:59 am)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Can God make a rock He couldn't lift?
Yes.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 1:53 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2013 at 1:53 pm by jonb.)
Why is it christians show a liking for how many angels can stand on the tip of a needle type debates, is it that they are uncomfortable with the real world?
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:04 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2013 at 3:17 pm by Mark 13:13.)
(January 5, 2013 at 11:57 am)Faith No More Wrote: You're misunderstanding the point of the question. It isn't can god make a rock he chooses not to lift. The question is can god make a rock he is unable to make, and the relevance is that either answer nullifies god's omnipotence. So, no, he does not remain all powerful.
I suppose if you are saying saying that God can't be omnipotent if that means he can't choose not to do something he has chosen to do.
mmmh maybe i should have read more WIKI as I seem to be reinventing the wheel. lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence
Some monotheists reject the view that a deity is or could be omnipotent, or take the view that, by choosing to create creatures with freewill, a deity has chosen to limit divine omnipotence.
Augustine, in his City of God, argued, instead, that God could not do anything that would make God non-omnipotent:
For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.
Oh well nothing new under the sun it seems.
(January 5, 2013 at 1:53 pm)jonb Wrote: Why is it christians show a liking for how many angels can stand on the tip of a needle type debates, is it that they are uncomfortable with the real world?
Strangely when I was in school and the history books were using this as a way of suggesting Medieval Scholars were stupid I actually thought the writers of the history books we wrong because I understood that they may have been talking about concepts that were very subtle as the difference between spiritual/physical , power seperated from mass, finite and infinite using the angle needle metaphor so I didn't swallow the Dark ages was just a time of idiots even as per usual the media of the time focused on the same areas as it does now.
(January 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (January 5, 2013 at 10:59 am)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Can God make a rock He couldn't lift?
Yes.
Reply loved the last quote "May Gods gift of reason light the way" I fully and wholeheartedly agree. and may Our Faith keep us safe from loosing the way until reason catches up lol.
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:20 pm
(January 5, 2013 at 11:57 am)Faith No More Wrote: You're misunderstanding the point of the question. It isn't can god make a rock he chooses not to lift. The question is can god make a rock he is unable to make, and the relevance is that either answer nullifies god's omnipotence. So, no, he does not remain all powerful.
AND it isn't about the Christian god or Muslim god or Jewish god. It cuts to the core as to why any "omni " god claim is a broken concept as a claim. It causes a contradiction in logic.
Can he make a borretto so hot he cant eat it.
If he can, he is not all powerful because he cant eat it.
If he cant, then he is also not all powerful.
The excuse to dodge this is standard though.
"I can do what I want"
"You wouldn't understand"
"I work in mysterious ways"
"I don't have to explain myself to you".
None of those explain the contradiction caused by the claim all powerful.
"All" means everything is included. So as soon as a person start's putting perameters on that word, they have set limits on that claim. "All" does not define something with limits in regards to a god claim.
Thus it makes an all powerful god claim a broken concept as a claim.
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:27 pm
(January 5, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Brian37 Wrote: [quote='Faith No More' pid='381690' dateline='1357401444']
You're misunderstanding the point of the question. It isn't can god make a rock he chooses not to lift. The question is can god make a rock he is unable to make, and the relevance is that either answer nullifies god's omnipotence. So, no, he does not remain all powerful.
but isn't GODS nature part of what GOD is and it would not be possable
for because of his nature to go back on a Choice he made because by doing so it would have mean't GOD made a wrong choice and by his ver nature He is never wrong.
although I found the answer in WIKI as I was responding to a previous post .
so I wasted all our time on that one sry.
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:28 pm
I think what Epicurus deduced about God by exploring his role in evil is relevant here since it relates to matters of omnipotence, etc.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:31 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2013 at 3:36 pm by Tiberius.)
"Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?" is a loaded question, and a logical fallacy.
At the very most, it only denies an absolutist version of omnipotence that almost nobody believes in in the first place. The question could really be asked this way: "Can God make square circles?". Most theists I've talked to believe in a version of omnipotence in which God can perform every action that is logically possible.
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RE: The rock God can't lift.
January 5, 2013 at 3:37 pm
(January 5, 2013 at 3:27 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: (January 5, 2013 at 3:20 pm)Brian37 Wrote: [quote='Faith No More' pid='381690' dateline='1357401444']
You're misunderstanding the point of the question. It isn't can god make a rock he chooses not to lift. The question is can god make a rock he is unable to make, and the relevance is that either answer nullifies god's omnipotence. So, no, he does not remain all powerful.
but isn't GODS nature part of what GOD is and it would not be possable
for because of his nature to go back on a Choice he made because by doing so it would have mean't GOD made a wrong choice and by his ver nature He is never wrong.
although I found the answer in WIKI as I was responding to a previous post .
so I wasted all our time on that one sry.
You just contradicted yourself again, which is what we keep telling you.
Rock or hot borretto if he can make them as so he cant lift or eat them, then he is not all powerful.
If he cant make either to where he cant, that also makes him not all powerful.
NOW YOU YOURSELF IN YOUR OWN ANSWER ALSO GAVE US OUR ANSWER
"He is never wrong"
That is a limit you set on him which defies the meaning of the word "all".
If god cant be wrong he is not all powerful.
If he can be wrong then he is flawed and not worth being called a god.
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