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Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
#11
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 8, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote: However, a mere 38 years later the region was "liberated" when Gnaeus Pompey overran the Hasmonean kingdom. One does wonder how deeply a forced religious conversion could have taken root in a such a short period of time, huh?
With an average life expectancy of under 50 years and new generation with every ~18 years, it shouldn't be that difficult to do such conversions in short periods.
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#12
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
Not that he is the most reliable of historians but you should read Josephus ( mainly because he is all we have). Alexander Jannaeus after his campaigns in the north almost immediately turned south and after a long siege took Gaza in 96. This set off a chain of events which saw him at war with both the Ptolemies and the Seleucids - although they did not cooperate with each other. Jannaeus suffered a serious defeat and there was a rebellion among the Jews against him as well. He survived by the skin of his teeth but the rest of his reign was a cruel repression of his own people. How much time he could have spent instilling "judaism" in Galilee is debatable based on the subsequent events which threatened the kingdom.

As for the rest of it, the Judaeans do not seem to have accepted converts or "forced converts" as "True Jews" ( probably the first known usage of that particular fallacy.) Certainly Herod's family was never accepted by the nobility and the priests as legitimate rulers because they were not of the Hasmonean family. The Samaritans, living just to the north of Judaea, are likewise rejected as True Jews and make it into the NT on several occasions.

So all this holy horseshit about Galilee seems to be a later xtian misunderstanding about these various peoples. BTW, the True Jews may have been right about Galilee. When Josephus' rebel army moved into the region the two largest cities - Sepphoris and Tiberias - shut their gates to him and called for Roman assistance.
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#13
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 8, 2013 at 9:07 am)Aractus Wrote: ...
They STILL have the 22 "books" (ie scrolls). How do you not comprehend this? Do you intentionally ignore the lunacy of your arguments.

Etc. Before going further lets see if we are on the same page.

1)There are only two candidates to have written the OT. Greek educated people in Alexandria or Greek educated people in Judea.

2)The contents are completely fictional without exception or mental reservation regarding campfire stories or traditions and such. They are fiction in the sense of Buffy the Vampire Slayer not in the sense of Band of Brothers.

3)Whoever created these books did so not earlier than the 2nd c. BC.

Do we agree? Because if we agree there several times in the supporting articles I say it is immaterial if it were actually written in Alexandria. I also point out that "Hebrew" did not exist (no evidence for existence) in the 2nd c. BC and as such Greek or Aramaic are the only candidate languages for the initial version. As there is no sign of an Aramaic that leaves Greek by simplest hypothesis. Is there evidence the simplest is not the most likely?

(January 8, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: The ancestors of New Testament Galileans were forced to convert to Judaism.

Yes. And I was amazed to find out how recent that was when I first looked into it.

The OT tells the bullshit tale about how the entire population of the northern kingdom was deported ( Sargon II of Assyria himself only records some 20,000+ people moved) but the other side of the coin is that the Assyrians moved others in. Those brought with them whatever religion they had from elsewhere in the Assyrian empire.

And the myth of Babylon captivity. Supposedly "corroborated" the actual few words from the conquest do not relate to the essential point of exporting any population to Babylon. Any resemblance to real events is purely coincidental.

Quote:It was not until the very end of the second century that King Alexander Jannaeus conquered Galilee ( c 101 BC) and forcibly converted the inhabitants to Judaism...including circumcision! However, a mere 38 years later the region was "liberated" when Gnaeus Pompey overran the Hasmonean kingdom. One does wonder how deeply a forced religious conversion could have taken root in a such a short period of time, huh?
The Galileans had spent the preceding 250 years under Hellensitic rule either from Seleucia or Alexandria. One imagines that Greek thought was far more deeply ingrained than jewish horseshit especially when brought at the point of a sword.

And also conquered Samaria. What the bible believers present as some ancient kingdom from the OT fantasies did not come into existence until the Hasmonean conquests. But even then far more limited than the OT fantasy kingdom.

Quote:As with so much else, I think the xtians are full of shit.

And Jews are neck and neck for being shitful. It makes a bit of sense of the indications of Jewish/Christian competition for converts being Galilean/Judean. It suggests Galilean success by having several major economic centers courtesy of Herod (who politically converted to the Judean cult) was born an Idumaean, neither Galilean nor Judean. And as the Judeans had also conquered his ancestors the hatred without cause from day one is easily explained.

In addition to the economics they had geography blocking the northern route into empire from the Euphrates to the Med whereas Judea was always landlocked hill country. There external connections are limited to Egypt and Babylon. The former is not a bad limit but the politics of the Roman empire don't go its way.

Given the late creation of an empire sort of resembling the one in the Septuagint it mitigates towards those stories having been written after the conquests, around the time of Pompey, as backstory to create the "ancientness" criteria Rome used to establish legitimacy of rule.

May not be bad but it leaves Daniel as an outlier as its prophecies go from true to false in the 2nd c. BC not the 1st.

(January 8, 2013 at 11:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:"The Septuagint is the original Old Testament" REALLY??

So it seems. Certainly there is no older hebrew version of the story in existence. But, as Mouse says, kindly present actual evidence of an older hebrew version of this jewish bullshit story.

Don't expect us to wait. Better minds than yours have already failed to do so.

Yes, argumentation is available by the pound but physical evidence is non-existent. From experience the arguers are trying to salvage something such as the stories are not complete fiction or a literate culture in Judea or some other groundless belief of the faithful.

(January 9, 2013 at 6:18 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(January 8, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote: However, a mere 38 years later the region was "liberated" when Gnaeus Pompey overran the Hasmonean kingdom. One does wonder how deeply a forced religious conversion could have taken root in a such a short period of time, huh?
With an average life expectancy of under 50 years and new generation with every ~18 years, it shouldn't be that difficult to do such conversions in short periods.

Except that Judaism is a ritual/taboo religion. It is a front for a hugely repressive totalitarian dictatorship of the priests. Summary public execution for any violation which one presumes means those which cannot be bought off. So what is the "conversion" to? Submission to the tyranny of the priests. It is not the kind that wins voluntary adherents. It is the kind that keeps its head down and looks for serious revolutionary leaders. Were not the Iscaria killing Judean priests? Makes a lot more sense if the were Galileans.
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#14
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
Quote:And the myth of Babylon captivity.

Well, we do have reference in the Babylonian Chronicles to Nebuchadnezzar's assault on Jersualem and his reduction of it to tributary status. Archaeology shows that the entire population ( as the bible claims with customary exaggeration) was not deported but the upper classes probably were. As a matter of fact records were discovered in Iraq which showed that Judahite names were mentioned prominently in high office in the Babylonian empire. There is a book called "A View From Nebo" which contains a discussion of these finds. The "exiles" were not slaves. As a matter of fact they seem to have been doing quite well for themselves.

Of course, these people were Judahites, citizens of the kingdom of Judah. There is nothing to indicate that at the time they were anything resembling "Jews" as we now understand the word.
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#15
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 9, 2013 at 11:30 am)Minimalist Wrote: Not that he is the most reliable of historians but you should read Josephus ( mainly because he is all we have).

To speculate he claims he got all his rewards because of a prophecy of victory. He must have been damned hard up for prophecies to have rewarded that. I would rather suggest he was rewarded for betraying his army to save his own ass.

Sidebar: Wikipedia will not accept anything he wrote insisting upon maintaining the Christian mythology from Maccabes onward.

Quote:Alexander Jannaeus after his campaigns in the north almost immediately turned south and after a long siege took Gaza in 96. This set off a chain of events which saw him at war with both the Ptolemies and the Seleucids - although they did not cooperate with each other. Jannaeus suffered a serious defeat and there was a rebellion among the Jews against him as well. He survived by the skin of his teeth but the rest of his reign was a cruel repression of his own people. How much time he could have spent instilling "judaism" in Galilee is debatable based on the subsequent events which threatened the kingdom.

As mentioned elsewhere the whole instilling thing was sending in armed priests to collect temple taxes from all of the Yahweh cult. How did they know? Circumcised of course. Naturally circumcision was the first thing imposed. And by the rules of the day the priests could have collected that tax any place in the Greek or Roman empires.

Then there was the required annual trip to Jerusalem to sacrifice at the temple. A huge financial burden for most but a windfall profit for the priests and the capital of the city-state of Judea -- as in Athens the capital of the city-state of Attica. And an odd note here, the young Jesus in the temple in the gospels is only found there. The Bar Mitzvah was invented in the late 1800s. Consider it a christian sacrament for Jews. The idea that bible-time Jews has to be literate for the Bar Mitzvah ceremony is so much BS. It did not exist.

Quote:As for the rest of it, the Judaeans do not seem to have accepted converts or "forced converts" as "True Jews" ( probably the first known usage of that particular fallacy.) Certainly Herod's family was never accepted by the nobility and the priests as legitimate rulers because they were not of the Hasmonean family. The Samaritans, living just to the north of Judaea, are likewise rejected as True Jews and make it into the NT on several occasions.

Which is why the later concept of forced converts does not apply. The conquered were forced to circumcise (be taxed for life) and adopt Judean ritual customs. That being the Torah and the penalty for violating the required rituals and taboos is generally summary public execution. The idea of "true Jews" does mean only true Judeans. Others could never become Judeans. (Josephus Jew==Judean) They could become members of the Yahweh cult by virtue of conquest.

Quote:So all this holy horseshit about Galilee seems to be a later xtian misunderstanding about these various peoples. BTW, the True Jews may have been right about Galilee. When Josephus' rebel army moved into the region the two largest cities - Sepphoris and Tiberias - shut their gates to him and called for Roman assistance.

And the infamous terrorists operating out of Masada, the locals demanded Rome do something about them too. No one backed the Judeans. Of course since the Masada folks were raiding the locals for provisions and kidnapping boys for their army they were not doing anything to win hearts and minds.

(January 9, 2013 at 10:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:And the myth of Babylon captivity.

Well, we do have reference in the Babylonian Chronicles to Nebuchadnezzar's assault on Jersualem and his reduction of it to tributary status. Archaeology shows that the entire population ( as the bible claims with customary exaggeration) was not deported but the upper classes probably were.

Archaeology does not show "probablies." The Babylonian account says one king was replaced with another. It does not say anyone was taken to Babylon. Such silences are golden. Diplomatic hostages of the ruling families most likely but only because that was the custom at the time. They would not have been a significant number and certainly no basis for the bible claims.

There is another inscription mentioning the wheat rations. Believers take that and divide by the number of people it could support and get a big number they love. However Babylon's taxes were wheat and were the only thing to disburse. If the captives lived naked in the streets then the division is legitimate. But as the reasonable assumption is the wheat allotment paid for food, shelter, clothing, servants, and other necessities appropriate to the families of kings it would support very few people.

Another is the Persian liberation saying sacred things were returned to their places. Believers claim that meant people. Fact is the Babylonians took the local uncarved stones representing the gods of the conquered to Babylon. Persia merely returned them.

Of course "graven images" like the Greeks used were forbidden. Uncarved stones were fine and that is what the commandment intends. In Gabilelus's short rule as emperor he brought his uncarved stone to Rome with him.

Quote: As a matter of fact records were discovered in Iraq which showed that Judahite names were mentioned prominently in high office in the Babylonian empire. There is a book called "A View From Nebo" which contains a discussion of these finds. The "exiles" were not slaves. As a matter of fact they seem to have been doing quite well for themselves.

Of course, these people were Judahites, citizens of the kingdom of Judah. There is nothing to indicate that at the time they were anything resembling "Jews" as we now understand the word.

I have not come across that. Got a URL handy? But the idea of a type of name being limited to a trivially small bit of geography does not appear reasonable to me. If someone is going to run with a name style I expect local identification of them with some far away place. What naming styles the various authors of the Septuagint chose and their inspiration for them is a separate issue.
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#16
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
Quote: I would rather suggest he was rewarded for betraying his army to save his own ass.

That idea always made more sense to me as well. Ever notice how the drawing of lots at Jotapata very closely resembles the drawing of lots at Masada? Of course, Josephus was not at Masada. He was already in Rome doing his bit for Flavian propaganda.


Quote:It does not say anyone was taken to Babylon.

No, but the Assyrians did deport conquered peoples to Assyria and replace them with others as a mechanism of control. (The US did the same thing by moving Indians off their land onto "reservations" where they had no ties to the land.) The Babylonians, being a successfully rebelling province of the Assyrian empire could easily have picked up the trick. Then again, we do have the Cyrus Cylinder which indicates that he did restore various peoples who had been overrun by the Babylonians. The Judahites are not mentioned, nor is yahweh but it was such an insignificant little shithole that it cannot have been foremost on his mind.

Archaeology does tell us that at the beginning of the Persian period a small number of people returned to "Jerusalem" and set up shop. Finkelstein puts the number at around 400 but this does mark a definitive break from the Babylonian administration which had been moved to Mispah when Jerusalem (or whatever it was called) was sacked and burned.

I've never found an online version of The View From Nebo. It is by Amy Dockser Marcus who is a reporter, not an archaeologist, but she went around interviewing archaeologists for the book. Luckily, she did not waste her time interviewing "theologians."
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#17
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 8, 2013 at 7:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: The ancestors of New Testament Galileans were forced to convert to Judaism.

Yes. And I was amazed to find out how recent that was when I first looked into it.

The OT tells the bullshit tale about how the entire population of the northern kingdom was deported ( Sargon II of Assyria himself only records some 20,000+ people moved) but the other side of the coin is that the Assyrians moved others in. Those brought with them whatever religion they had from elsewhere in the Assyrian empire.

It was not until the very end of the second century that King Alexander Jannaeus conquered Galilee ( c 101 BC) and forcibly converted the inhabitants to Judaism...including circumcision! However, a mere 38 years later the region was "liberated" when Gnaeus Pompey overran the Hasmonean kingdom. One does wonder how deeply a forced religious conversion could have taken root in a such a short period of time, huh?
The Galileans had spent the preceding 250 years under Hellensitic rule either from Seleucia or Alexandria. One imagines that Greek thought was far more deeply ingrained than jewish horseshit especially when brought at the point of a sword.

As with so much else, I think the xtians are full of shit.

Was not the Galilee quite lightly populated from time of the Assyrian conquest to the Hellenistic people. Also was it colonized a number of Jews from Judea and the diaspora after the Hasmoneans conquered it?
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#18
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 9, 2013 at 9:07 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Etc. Before going further lets see if we are on the same page.

1)There are only two candidates to have written the OT. Greek educated people in Alexandria or Greek educated people in Judea.

2)The contents are completely fictional without exception or mental reservation regarding campfire stories or traditions and such. They are fiction in the sense of Buffy the Vampire Slayer not in the sense of Band of Brothers.

3)Whoever created these books did so not earlier than the 2nd c. BC.

Do we agree? Because if we agree there several times in the supporting articles I say it is immaterial if it were actually written in Alexandria. I also point out that "Hebrew" did not exist (no evidence for existence) in the 2nd c. BC and as such Greek or Aramaic are the only candidate languages for the initial version. As there is no sign of an Aramaic that leaves Greek by simplest hypothesis. Is there evidence the simplest is not the most likely?
I get it you're just a Poe atheist.

You've already managed to self-contradicted yourself.

Go and practise falling down. Rolleyes



Facepalm Why don't we start with the first thing I told you. The LXX is not the Jewish Bible. It is substantially different from both the Tanakh and the Christian Old Testament, and I've already pointed this out to you. It contains entire books not found in Hebrew, and it was substantially re-ordered. Plus, there is not a single complete manuscript on Earth (older than contemporary printed critical texts) of the LXX. As I've pointed out to you.

You spew out bullshit as if it's the gospel truth, present no tangible evidence, and then claim that if I can't prove a negative that your point is proven, what utter rubbish.

Secular non-religious contemporary historians don't look at OT Biblical literacy and conclude it was written in Greek. They look for things like loanwords and transliteration to both date the works (as best as possible) and also to establish whether the writing is a translation or original (where the original version is not available). There are several times in the LXX where the meaning of the Hebrew word is clearly unknown in Greek and has been transliterated. This includes words like "behemoth" and "gopher" (as in gopher wood) and many names. You're not a textual critic you have no idea what the fuck that you're talking about buddy.

There are DSS Hebrew scrolls and fragments of scrolls dated to the 2nd century BC (possibly even older still if you go by carbon dating instead of scholarly analysis/textual criticism). Indeed the Great Isaiah Scroll would be 4th century BC if you went by carbon dating. And as you want to ignore all scholarly thought, surely this means you think it dates to the 4th century BC, that's some 200 years before you believe the LXX was written. Also it is the "shorter version" that you claim was written after the LXX. As I said, you are completely self-contradictory.

Let me just ask you one question - do you also deny the Holocaust?

Go and practise falling down.
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#19
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 9, 2013 at 11:17 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: I would rather suggest he was rewarded for betraying his army to save his own ass.

That idea always made more sense to me as well. Ever notice how the drawing of lots at Jotapata very closely resembles the drawing of lots at Masada? Of course, Josephus was not at Masada. He was already in Rome doing his bit for Flavian propaganda.


Quote:It does not say anyone was taken to Babylon.

No, but the Assyrians did deport conquered peoples to Assyria and replace them with others as a mechanism of control. (The US did the same thing by moving Indians off their land onto "reservations" where they had no ties to the land.) The Babylonians, being a successfully rebelling province of the Assyrian empire could easily have picked up the trick. Then again, we do have the Cyrus Cylinder which indicates that he did restore various peoples who had been overrun by the Babylonians. The Judahites are not mentioned, nor is yahweh but it was such an insignificant little shithole that it cannot have been foremost on his mind.

Read the Cyrus cylinder. It says nothing of people. It says sacred things were restored to their places. If I have to choose between Judeans being considered sacred things and the stones that represented the gods which were taken to Babylon the latter is a no-brainer. It has to be referring to the stones.

Quote:Archaeology does tell us that at the beginning of the Persian period a small number of people returned to "Jerusalem" and set up shop. Finkelstein puts the number at around 400 but this does mark a definitive break from the Babylonian administration which had been moved to Mispah when Jerusalem (or whatever it was called) was sacked and burned.

I have read Finkelstein & Silvermman, watched the former in documentaries and read interviews. I have yet to hear any arkie evidence of any people returning. I have no interest in anyone's opinion regardless of how nowned or renowned or even famous. I am only interested in their physical evidence. I have found none. I have heard no reference to any nor suggestion of existence of any. If you have come across something let me know.

Quote:I've never found an online version of The View From Nebo. It is by Amy Dockser Marcus who is a reporter, not an archaeologist, but she went around interviewing archaeologists for the book. Luckily, she did not waste her time interviewing "theologians."

Frankly interviewing anyone for their opinion absent presentation of physical evidence is worthless. The greatest diggers of the 19th c. and arkies of the 20th are still mostly believers. They may be making odd finds in their narrow digs but they commonly support religious traditions that confirm everything else as true. I have yet to come across anything that rises above worthless. Finkelstein does this. None of them have the independent wealth or balls to call it like it is.

To this day people are pointing to scratches on broken pottery as evidence of a literate culture. Total bull! It is almost all contracts. A literate culture without a single specialization for writing like even clay tablets? There is no literate culture in bibleland until a century after the Greeks. Before them only the Egyptians and Phoenicians.

The facts are inextricably mixed with the myth. Take the Hezekiah tunnel inscription mainly its name. First off it was removed to Turkey shortly after discovery so it has no context that can be recovered. Second it is clearly written in Phoenician. Third it makes no mention of Hezekiah or anything biblical. Fourth the bible story of the tunnel could have been invented any time after the tunnel existed. The inscription does not date the story or the tunnel or give it a biblical connection. Yet the otherwise competent arkies will cite it as though there were no problems with it.
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#20
RE: Made in Alexandria: The Origin of the Yahweh Cult
(January 10, 2013 at 5:00 am)Justtristo Wrote: Was not the Galilee quite lightly populated from time of the Assyrian conquest to the Hellenistic people. Also was it colonized a number of Jews from Judea and the diaspora after the Hasmoneans conquered it?

There is probably no way to get a good answer to that but I'd say it is highly unlikely. The east coast of the Med was populated with Hellenic and Phoenician cities and the Galilee would be the farm land to feed them. From memory there were seven Phoenician cities and and Joppa, now Jaffa in Israel as Hellenic or Mycenaean or whatever the designation. Being major centers of trade there was likely a huge local market for export wine and olive oil. The Galilee could have been under populated for the potential export market.
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