Woman burned alive for 'sorcery' in Papua New Guinea

[Aegrus]

. . .aaand these sort of burnings make me feel sick.

*Think happy thoughts, Tyler. Happy thoughts.*

---

. . .aaand these sort of burnings make me feel sick.

*Think happy thoughts, Tyler. Happy thoughts.*

And. . .I just unthinkingly gave away my name to the forum. Oh well, doesn't really matter. It's not like it's my address. Hell, it's not even my last name.

[Mystical]

I think this video shows some of Drichs' viewpoint. Please note it is in a totally different country, as this issue is widespread.

You have the Witches, Witch doctors battling the Witches, opportunistic Pentecostals competing with the Witch doctors (for money), Evangelists battling the Pentecostals, and the ruling class Churches trying to temper it's beliefs with ignorant local mysticism and discrimination while still trying to maintain peace in a fear and poverty based environment, because it's the only authority in the land. In the end it just becomes a fuck-muddle-puddle (yeah I made that up).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...lRG9gXriVI



New Guinea Facts via Papua New Guineas' state website Section I. Religious Demography:
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010_5/168371.htm

Churches continue to run most schools and many health services, and the government provides support for these institutions. Upon independence, the government recognized that it had neither the funds nor the personnel to take over these institutions and agreed to subsidize their operation on a per pupil or per patient basis. The government also pays the salaries of national teachers and health staff. The education and health infrastructures continue to rely heavily on church-run institutions. Some schools and clinics closed periodically because they did not receive promised government support; these problems were due in part to the government's endemic financial management problems.

According to the 2000 census, 96.4 percent of citizens identified themselves as Christian. Churches with the most members are Roman Catholic, 27 percent; Evangelical Lutheran, 19.5 percent; United Church, 11.5 percent; Seventh Day Adventist, 10 percent; Pentecostal, 8.6 percent; Evangelical Alliance, 5.2 percent; Anglican, 3.2 percent; and Baptist, 2.5 percent. Other Christian groups, including The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Salvation Army, constitute 8.9 percent. Bahai make up 0.3 percent of the population and the final 3.3 percent hold indigenous or other beliefs. Many citizens integrate Christian faith with some indigenous beliefs and practices.The predominance of Christianity is recognized in the preamble of the constitution, which refers to "our noble traditions and the Christian principles that are ours." However, there is no state religion.

Western missionaries introduced Christianity to the country in the 19th century. Colonial governments initially assigned different missions to different geographic regions. Since territory in the country is aligned strongly with language group and ethnicity, this colonial policy led to the identification of certain churches with certain ethnic groups. However, churches of many denominations are now found throughout the country. The Muslim community has a mosque in the capital of Port Moresby and 10-20 Islamic centers across the country.

Nontraditional Christian and non-Christian religious groups have become increasingly active in recent years. Muslim and Confucian organizations have a growing presence. Pentecostal and charismatic Christian groups have found converts within congregations of the more established churches.

In general, the government does not subsidize the practice of religion. It is the policy of the Department of Education to set aside one hour per week for religious instruction in the public schools. Representatives of Christian churches teach the lessons, and the students attend the class operated by the church of their parents' choice. Children whose parents do not wish them to attend the classes are excused. Members of non-Christian religious groups are not numerous, and they use family and group gatherings before and after school for religious lessons.

In recent years, as new missionary movements proliferated, representatives and individuals of some established churches questioned publicly, in denominational meetings and newspaper articles, whether such activity was desirable. The courts and government practice have upheld the constitutional right to freedom of speech, thought, and belief, and no legislation to curb those rights has been adopted.


The Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) partnered with the Department of Education and local communities in linguistic research, literacy efforts, Bible translation, scripture use, and training. The Department of Education relies on SIL to produce translations of the Bible for government-sponsored religious instruction in schools. As of 2008, SIL had translated the New Testament into 170 of the country's indigenous languages.

http://www.pngbuai.com/300socialsciences...in-PNG.htm

I see the ruling/law enforcement sector as being at fault in this situation for not upholding the peace. Bilateral financial aid in the neighborhood of K520 million is given to the government of PNG. However,
the people obviously see little to none of that besides in law enforcement or medical workers (who are obviously ineffective). Thus New Guinean's are left to their own mechanisms, carrying out their own forms of justice because they have no faith in the authority of their nation because there is no authority of their nation.

Drich said:
Again if I had been a witch in that community and i knew witches were not welcomeby some I would stay out of the area because of those few who killed witches.
Again, this is an action perpetrated by individuals. My questions was: Did she know that the people in whom she was dealing with hated witches, or did she know that being a witch in a given area would get her killed?
Not only that you have used this one incodent to condemn a whole community

There is no "staying out of the area sorry to say. The area is the entire country.

In 1971, the country introduced a Sorcery Act to criminalize the practice. But PNG's law reform commission recently proposed to repeal it after a rise in attacks on people thought to practice black magic.
Local bishop David Piso said many innocent people had been killed.
The woman, named by The National newspaper as Kepari Leniata, 20, was reportedly tortured with a branding iron and tied up, splashed with fuel and set alight on a pile of rubbish topped with car tyres.
According to the rival Post-Courier newspaper she was torched by villagers who claimed she killed a six-year-old boy through sorcery, with police outnumbered by onlookers and unable to intervene.
A fire truck that responded to the incident, which took place on Wednesday morning in Mount Hagen city in the Western Highlands, was also chased away.
According to the reports, which were accompanied by graphic front-page images of the woman's burning corpse, she admitted to killing the boy, who died after being admitted to hospital with stomach and chest pains on Tuesday.
Police said they were treating the torching as murder and preparing charges against those responsible.
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There is a widespread belief in sorcery in the poverty-stricken Pacific nation where many people do not accept natural causes as an explanation for misfortune, illness, accidents or death.
In 1971, the country introduced a Sorcery Act to criminalise the practice. But PNG's law reform commission recently proposed to repeal it after a rise in attacks on people thought to practise black magic.
Local bishop David Piso said many innocent people had been killed.

"Sorcery and sorcery-related killings are growing and the government needs to come up with a law to stop such practice," Piso told The National.
Police arrested dozens of people last year linked to an alleged cannibal cult accused of killing at least seven people, eating their brains raw and making soup from their penises.
There have been several other cases of witchcraft and cannibalism in PNG in recent years, with a man reportedly found eating his screaming, newborn son during a sorcery initiation ceremony in 2011.
In 2009, a young woman was stripped naked, gagged and burnt alive at the stake, also in Mount Hagen, in what was said to be a sorcery-related crime.
Source: AFP

''This case adds to the growing pattern of vigilante attacks and killings of persons accused of sorcery in Papua New Guinea,'' Cecile Pouilly, a spokeswoman for the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters in Geneva.
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Ms Pouilly said that police were continuing their investigation of a case in Jiwaka province in November, when people held three women and two men for 20 days for allegedly using sorcery to kill another person, torturing them with iron rods and knives heated over fires before killing them.

According to Amnesty International, violence against those accused of sorcery is endemic in PNG.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/un-demand...z2KfFhgr4F


A UN investigator who visited PNG in March also found that women, particularly widows and those with no other family members to protect them, were disproportionately affected by the violence against suspected sorcerers, which included torture, rape, mutilations and murder.

''I was shocked to witness the brutality of the assaults perpetrated against suspected sorcerers,'' the investigator, Rashida Manjoo, said in a statement after her visit, reporting that many of the people she interviewed said that sorcery accusations were commonly used to deprive women of their land and property.

''Any misfortune or death within the community can be used as an excuse to accuse such a person of being a sorcerer,'' Ms Manjoo said.

Attacks often were carried out by young men and boys acting on the instruction of their community and under the influence of alcohol and drugs given to them, Ms Manjoo said she was told. They also often acted with impunity, she said, because witnesses feared talking to the police and followed a social tradition of ''wantok'' or solidarity.

Responding to Wednesday's attack in Mount Hagen, the UN human rights office and Amnesty International urged PNG's government to implement the recommendations of a constitutional commission that called in November for the repeal of the country's sorcery law.

Human rights groups say the 1971 law, which criminalises sorcery and recognises the accusation of sorcery as a defence in murder cases, contributes to the violence. The commission's report and recommendations, however, have not yet been presented to the country's parliament, Ms Pouilly said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/un-demand...z2KfFQSzCn

Drich said:
In your "critical thinking" you have missed this little 'critical' tid-bit. Perception is everything,
content/substance means very little when individuals are scared and frightened. IF This poor woman
Sold herself as a Witch then to the less informed for All practical purposes she was a witch. One need
not have any other qualification. (lest you forget the Salem witch trials)

[In January 1692, 9-year-old Elizabeth (Betty) Parris and 11-year-old Abigail Williams (the daughter and niece of Samuel Parris, minister of Salem Village) began having fits, including violent contortions and uncontrollable outbursts of screaming. After a local doctor, William Griggs, diagnosed bewitchment, other young girls in the community began to exhibit similar symptoms, including Ann Putnam Jr., Mercy Lewis, Elizabeth Hubbard, Mary Walcott and Mary Warren. In late February, arrest warrants were issued for the Parris' Caribbean slave, Tituba, along with two other women--the homeless beggar Sarah Good and the poor, elderly Sarah Osborn--whom the girls accused of bewitching them.Though Good and Osborn denied their guilt, Tituba confessed. Likely seeking to save herself from certain conviction by acting as an informer, she claimed there were other witches acting alongside her in service of the devil against the Puritans. In January 1697, the Massachusetts General Court declared a day of fasting for the tragedy of the Salem witch trials; the court later deemed the trials unlawful, and the leading justice Samuel Sewall publicly apologized for his role in the process. The damage to the community lingered, however, even after Massachusetts Colony passed legislation restoring the good names of the condemned and providing financial restitution to their heirs in 1711. From June through September of 1692, nineteen men and women, all having been convicted of witchcraft, were carted to Gallows Hill, a barren slope near Salem Village, for hanging. Another man of over eighty years was pressed to death under heavy stones for refusing to submit to a trial on witchcraft charges. Hundreds of others faced accusations of witchcraft. Dozens languished in jail for months without trials. Then, almost as soon as it had begun, the hysteria that swept through Puritan Massachusetts ended.


In school this was what I was taught with regards to Salem, so according to the US dept of Education: the cause for a 9 yr old being pegged a witch, was ergot poisoning.


Sometime during February of the exceptionally cold winter of 1692, young Betty Parris became strangely ill. She dashed about, dove under furniture, contorted in pain, and complained of fever. The cause of her symptoms may have been some combination of stress, asthma, guilt, boredom, child abuse, epilepsy, and delusional psychosis. The symptoms also could have been caused, as Linda Caporael argued in a 1976 article in Science magazine, by a disease called "convulsive ergotism" brought on by injesting rye--eaten as a cereal and as a common ingredient of bread--infected with ergot. (Ergot is caused by a fungus which invades developing kernels of rye grain, especially under warm and damp conditions such as existed at the time of the previous rye harvest in Salem. Convulsive ergotism causes violent fits, a crawling sensation on the skin, vomiting, choking, and--most interestingly--hallucinations. The hallucinogenic drug LSD is a derivative of ergot.]

1.
In order to blame Christianity for doing "X" then "X" must be apart of the Christian bi-laws. If a person does "X" and Christian laws have nothing to do with "X" then this is no longer a "Christian" matter.

2.
Quote:And no matter how much you blind yourself to it, yes there are religious instructions in the bible regarding witches, and odds on those instructions led to this turn of events.
Again your default logic is an appeal to ignorance. After I have explained and it is well known that the Bible in which you Speak represents Two Very distinct religions. We are speaking of Christianity here, and as such their are no laws in Christianity that even approach approval of this act.

1. X is still a "Christian" matter if X religion was brought to Y people and Y people used quotes from X religious texts to burn Z people. Just because the texts of Christianity were misinterpreted (word for word might I add), does not mean that Christianity gets to put it's hands in the air and call time-out. I see it's encompassing grip on the society as an open admission of responsibility and at the very least, it should take responsibility for the effects it's influences have on the society it infiltrates.

2. Try explaining that to illiterate New Guineans and see how far that goes. Just sayin If it's in the bible it's the word of god, straight from the horses' mouth. That's all they know. OT vs NT bi-laws are not going to be explainable to the uneducated if you can't even explain it to the educated. Thus if history has shown us anything, it's that the ignorant will use the bible against one another when it's proclaimed to be the direct words of a higher power and states clearly (albeit OT or NT) statements that condemn someone. I blame whomever proliferates the bible as more than a literary text, to be at blame. But that's just me.

[Violet]

You just like me because I quote Monty Python

I assure you, Milady: it runs far deeper than that

Which gives me uber respect for your fiance for landing you. It's quite a compliment to be respected by me, or so it might seem from my irreverence.

---

And. . .I just unthinkingly gave away my name to the forum. Oh well, doesn't really matter. It's not like it's my address. Hell, it's not even my last name.

Okay, Happy I really like that name... you can call me 'Purity'

[Brian37]

First off, there is no contemporary evidence of the alleged Jesus character's time of his existence.

If their was a painic stop botton in a Jesus conversation, this would be it. If you not willing to entertain the Idea that Christ existed (whatever the reason) then their is no need to go any further.

Listen, take put the Jesus Kool Aid down for a second and take that puppet master hand out of your back. You act like one of Jeff Dunham's puppets, but nowhere near as funny.

I have said it before, and you are NOT the first I have had this argument with. I have been online debating religion for 12 years now, this is not my first rodeo.

The honest Historians, not the theologians, not the apologists. The honest historians HAVE NOT found one lick of evidence for the alleged Jesus character.

But, if we pretend for a second, he did exist, it still would not make virgin births real. It still would not mean human flesh can survive rigor mortis.

We know that George Washington existed, but no person I would consider sane would claim he could fart a full sized Lamborghini out of his ass back then.

You can rent a Superman movie, and in it you can see the character flying around the REAL city of New York, but you don't believe humans fly like that because New York is a real city?

"He existed" doesn't make magic real, it doesn't make your god real. The only thing it would mean if proven, would be that a man managed to start a cult. It wouldn't make him magic, and it does not mean an invisible friend in the sky is real either.

You merely swallowed a superstition. You like having a super hero. You are not doing anything differently than Muslims when they claim Mohammed existed, and they have more evidence for that than you do for Jesus, yet you are not a a Muslim.

Why should I give one lick of credibility to a tribal comic book full of violence, sexism, genocide, incest, lead by a head character whose only goal is to get you to kiss his ass? Why should I value a book that has absolutely no basis in scientific realty, much less any moral credibility?

That is your comic book, not mine.

---

First off, there is no contemporary evidence of the alleged Jesus character's time of his existence.

If their was a painic stop botton in a Jesus conversation, this would be it. If you not willing to entertain the Idea that Christ existed (whatever the reason) then their is no need to go any further.

Run away if you wish. But always remember when you do chose to argue with skeptics, ultimately, before you get to your comic book, you start off with the naked assertion that there is such a thing as an invisible disembodied magical super brain.

FYI I don't entertain virgin births because I know what DNA is. I don't entertain zombie gods because I know what rigor mortis is.

You don't entertain Thor do you? Why not? Thor makes as much sense explaining lightening as godsperm explains virgin births.

[Drich]

1. X is still a "Christian" matter if X religion was brought to Y people and Y people used quotes from X religious texts to burn Z people. Just because the texts of Christianity were misinterpreted (word for word might I add), does not mean that Christianity gets to put it's hands in the air and call time-out.

But that is exactly what it means. If troop of girl scouts decides to break off from the offical organization, and sell their own brand of cookies, wear different uniforms, rewrites it own rules and bi-laws, are they still to be considered 'Girl Scouts?' What if they still identify themselves by that name? What if a 37 year old man wanted to call himself a girl scout? Does it make him one? In a word, no.

Why? Because there are rules that one must fall under to be considered apart of an organization. You all have been arguing the 'No true scotsmen fallacy' against Christianity so long unchecked you actually believe it. What your arguement does not take into consideration is the fact that Christianity is a organization like any other. As such there are rules and regs that determine who and what are christian. If this group who calls themselves christians does X and X is not a 'sanctioned' Christian behaivor, then its real simple. those who do X do not do it under or for Christianity.

I see it's encompassing grip on the society as an open admission of responsibility and at the very least, it should take responsibility for the effects it's influences have on the society it infiltrates.

Should Christianity also be responsiable for those people getting the witch hunters high/drunk before sending them out, when clearly Murder is a sin, Drinking, and doing Drugs is a sin?

The Christian Faith has already condemned every part of what these people have done. what more is their to do?

2. Try explaining that to illiterate New Guineans and see how far that goes. Just sayin If it's in the bible it's the word of god, straight from the horses' mouth. That's all they know. OT vs NT bi-laws are not going to be explainable to the uneducated if you can't even explain it to the educated.

I can explain it to the "educated," the problem is the 'educated' think the know better, and ignore what has been explained:
The bible repersents 2 Different religions. Judism, and Christianity. These are divided by what are known as covenants or "testaments." The Old Testament refers to Judaism, and The New Testament refers to all things Christian.

Done..

The problem? The 'educated' who do not practice this religion don't want a reconcilliation. They have found a justification in the confusion they have created for themselves, and are content living there.

Thus if history has shown us anything, it's that the ignorant will use the bible against one another when it's proclaimed to be the direct words of a higher power and states clearly (albeit OT or NT) statements that condemn someone.

Actually no. The Evil will try and use 'religion' to mask the evil in their hearts. This is the lesson History teaches. This is the lesson Christ taught. One does not have to be uneducated to be Evil.

[Mystical]

I assure you, Milady: it runs far deeper than that

Which gives me uber respect for your fiance for landing you. It's quite a compliment to be respected by me, or so it might seem from my irreverence.

---

Well I take that as the highest compliment, miss Violet I'd say that thats the sweetest thing someone's said to me lately, but you should've heard the sweetness he was talkin to me last night!
And. . .I just unthinkingly gave away my name to the forum. Oh well, doesn't really matter. It's not like it's my address. Hell, it's not even my last name.
[/quote]
You had me wondering for a minute if u could be my cousin Tyler but then I realized, "naw he would never say 'hell' anything

[Drich]

Exodus 22:18

18 “Do not allow a sorceress [b]to live.

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But the OT doesn't count...ever. At least not when it makes Christianity look bad.

And technicality alert: even if this isn't binding anymore, it still reflects the will of god just as much as "thou shalt not kill" (ironically) does.

Okay, it doesn't specifically say "burn", I'll give you that.

I even went so far as to show you a passage in Acts where Peter encounters a Sorcerer, and simply demands that he repent of his sin. Nothing more.

But what about

---

Matthew 5:17-20
The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

---

Asked in answered in it's own thread! (Read the OP)
http://atheistforums.org/thread-16745.html

wow that was easy.

I read the rest of you message, and There is no need to get into your arguement any further unless you can provide New Testamant Scripture that established a command that Christians are to burn witches as you have indicated.

You want an NT law in particular? Jesus wanted people to follow the spirit of the law, not just the letter, but as I said in my previous post (quoted here), regardless of whether or not the OT laws need to be followed to the letter to achieve salvation or not does not change the fact that they are still the will of god. Jesus didn't say anything specifically about witches

But Paul did, He modeled How Christians are supposed to encounter then and limits our encounters to a stern rebuke.

just like he didn't say anything about homosexuality.

Actually He did. He said The only place for any sexual activity is in a santified Marriage. That Even the thought of sex outside of the marriage bed is a sin.

Sooo...what's it going to be? (I'm not saying that you are homophobic, but some Christians use Leveticus as justification for it...not that you wouldn't already be aware of that fact).

That sounds like a new thread, why not start one and lets find out together

[Aegrus]

You had me wondering for a minute if u could be my cousin Tyler but then I realized, "naw he would never say 'hell' anything

Well, this is a bit of an interesting development, as I don't think anyone in my family actually knows that I *can* swear. I don't at all when I'm not sure how people will react to it.

There's a simple solution to this issue; my profile picture is now my face. Is it anyone you recognize?

[Drich]

The honest historians HAVE NOT found one lick of evidence for the alleged Jesus character.

Again, You just put a panic stop to the conversation.

If you put your faith in the commentaries of those in whom you wish to believe, then that is your right to do so. For I can find secular sources that do not doubt the existance of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehr...49544.html
"Mar 20, 2012 ... Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed."

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/...s-his-case
This book examinine what evidence is avaiable. (not just alluding to it what is or is not there.)

But again, it's a matter of faith no matter what you believe. I am not here to tell you that your faith is wrong. (That's God's job) my job is to support those who wish to build a faith on Christ, and to dispell any myths or biblical inaccuracies/answer Questions and bring biblical Clarity (Which all depend on one's basic acceptance of the bible and Christ.) If you can not manage this then we have nothing to say to each other.

So again, If you wish to deny the existance of Christ it put a panic stop on the conversation.

[Darkstar]

You want an NT law in particular? Jesus wanted people to follow the spirit of the law, not just the letter, but as I said in my previous post (quoted here), regardless of whether or not the OT laws need to be followed to the letter to achieve salvation or not does not change the fact that they are still the will of god. Jesus didn't say anything specifically about witches

But Paul did, He modeled How Christians are supposed to encounter then and limits our encounters to a stern rebuke.

Hence...the crusades? Christianity must have really been having a bad day if even the pope wasn't a True Christian™. Jesus directly contradicts god on this matter, though god also contradicted himself with "thou shalt not kill". How exactly does one reconcile this? I'm beginning more and more to think that the OT should be dashed from Christianity altogether, Jesus and god are just too different...