The purpose of god

[EGross]

Actuallyy, when Constantine was about to convert, he went on a sexual and murdering rampage before, knowing all of his sins would be forgiven. But then, maybe the policy has changed since then.

[fr0d0]

Constantine went on a murdering rampage after too. Things sure were different

[Baalzebutt]

1. We have no way of knowing if his sins were forgiven. But let's say for the same of argument, we know as much as God in this scenario.

2. Of course converting to Christianity doesn't also erase all of your sins. Those sins remain if you need to make right any wrongs. Prisoners will happily serve their sentences wanting to pay any debt owed. Being convicted of their guilt to a just God requires far more than is required from earthly justice. All of your private and personal life becomes open to scrutiny.

So, far from avoiding responsibility, we know that Dahmer subjected himself to more judgement that his fellow humans were aware of. He would have made right his debt to his fellow man, and to God. What objection can you have to his just judgement? Am I any better than him? Do I have more right than him to forgiveness? With my law abiding life all the time avoiding what would give me real freedom?

Not that I am doubting you but from what I have read and heard, the whole point of salvation is that WE DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR OUR SINS or make reparations to injured parties. I believe the bible states that all sins are immediately forgiven upon ones acceptance of jesus.

If I am wrong, can you please point to the bible verses that suggest sins remain after salvation and that reparations to those affronted need to be made for those sins to be wiped clean.

[fr0d0]

Jesus told the woman at the well to go sin no more. Why? ...if she no longer had any responsibility and could now sin freely?

So what are sins here? violations against God or violations against other people? What does absolute justice dictate?

There can be nothing harder than reconciling ones guilt. If you were Dahmer, how would you manage that? At what point would you feel that you deserved to receive pardon? That's what he would have to have done right? To be absolved from any guilt?

Rebellion against God is rebellion against good itself. I don't know anything about Dahmer. Perhaps he liked eating people. Not something society condones. Some people equate eating animals to eating people.

[EGross]

In religions with a Master, there are usually sins agains man and sins against god, with the former being harder to resolve. With the latter, mumble a few prayers or sacrifice a critter, and you're back in good graces. For the former, you actually have to clean up your mess. "Gee Bob, I was the one who burnt down your house. Sorry, but I had a really bad day, you know how it is. What can I do to make it up to you?"

[fr0d0]

From your fruits shall they know you

[Baalzebutt]

Jesus told the woman at the well to go sin no more. Why? ...if she no longer had any responsibility and could now sin freely?

So what are sins here? violations against God or violations against other people? What does absolute justice dictate?

There can be nothing harder than reconciling ones guilt. If you were Dahmer, how would you manage that? At what point would you feel that you deserved to receive pardon? That's what he would have to have done right? To be absolved from any guilt?

Rebellion against God is rebellion against good itself. I don't know anything about Dahmer. Perhaps he liked eating people. Not something society condones. Some people equate eating animals to eating people.

Obviously, if it is sins against god, all he has to do is accept jesus.

If it is sins against man, he must face the societal consequences of his actions. Dahmers actions were so extreme that there is no hope of redemption within society.

Justice comes from the society one lives in. If justice were absolute, it would be universal and the Taliban would not be shooting young girls in the face for the crime of going to school.

If we leave justice to god, we have empty prisons. But the fact is, our justice comes from an EVOLVED need within the human species to control our own behavior for survival of ourselves and our society alike. When we cannot control our own behavior, society controls it for us. Though not perfect in execution, our system does provide some basis for our society to continue on a somewhat civil basis.

Your statement assumes that Dahmer actually experienced guilt. All available evidence points to Dahmer having no sense of guilt whatsoever. Therefore, he has nothing be pardoned for, nothing to be absolved from.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that there is simply no way to justify anything like a just god when a mass murderer goes to heaven and a good person who does not believe goes to hell. That is anything but justice.

[fr0d0]

Everything bad is a sin against God, because God stands for good. He could not be just otherwise.

God is needed in cases where justice cannot be served, because only he can exact it. You don't get to see it.

What is evolved is forgiveness. Primitive justice seeks an eye for an eye. Justice without God is not justice. The justice system falls over with naturalistic morality at its core.

My statement assumes that we know if Dahmer was fogiven for sin. Without coming to God and seeking forgiveness, none is offerred. If he had no understanding of guilt he had no need of God or forgiveness.

You assume that Dahmer was bad, and deserves punishment, by judging what is abhorrent to you. By assuming to know what motivated him. Our justice is limited to human understanding, which is far from perfect. What is the benefit to you or anyone else that someone is punished? Does that make you feel better? Are you deluded into understanding that something has paid the price for some injustice you understand? Do you need to see a sacrifice in order to see balance?

See there's what Xtianity offers... a sacrifice without blood letting. Civilised justice. An understanding of the greater good and that our desire to exact pain for an imbalance, that someone always has to pay for bad stuff, is not good for us. It destroys us just like any person doing bad stuff gets destroyed by it. We need to break the chain. Here's a way to do it.

[Zone]

Surely Christianity is actually based on a human sacrifice? "the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect" and all that business. Essentially Jesus would be the ultimate scapegoat for human sins. "A live goat over whose head Aaron confessed all the sins of the children of Israel on the Day of Atonement. The goat, symbolically bearing their sins, was then sent into the wilderness.". It would be better if you just applied the golden rule in your life than to be given a poison and then offered the cure. Any decent God who would exist would merely judge people on their merits, and no crime can really be great enough to deserve an eternal never ending punishment.

[fr0d0]

Jesus provides a stark focus, that humans can understand > designed for humans to relate to. A one off act that pays it forward infinitely. Replacing sacrifice like you are hankering for now.

So do unto others as you would have them do unto you. How does that apply to Dahmer for you?