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Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 10:20 am
The concept that god forgives your transgressions against others is worthless.
Imagine this.
Bill in a fit of rage with Ted cuts off the larger of Teds testicles.
Bill prays for forgiveness and god tm forgives him.
In this scenario god is a disinterested third party. How come he gets to forgive on Teds behalf?
In my view the only person who can offer forgiveness is the wronged person, in this case the mono-testicular Ted.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 10:59 am
(February 26, 2013 at 10:20 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: The concept that god forgives your transgressions against others is worthless.
Imagine this.
Bill in a fit of rage with Ted cuts off the larger of Teds testicles.
Bill prays for forgiveness and god tm forgives him.
In this scenario god is a disinterested third party. How come he gets to forgive on Teds behalf?
In my view the only person who can offer forgiveness is the wronged person, in this case the mono-testicular Ted.
If Bill cut the ball off of Ted, don't you think Ted's Father would also be mad at bill? Being the poilce Chief in that particular movie, I would say that bill would seek out the forgivness of Ted and His Father or face some serious Jail time.
Likewise when we sin we sin against God, for it is His standard being broken. Even when we sin against another person we are sinning against the one who created that person as well as the indivisual themselves.
Just like if Bill were to cut the balls off of Ted. Ted is being physically assulted, but in the larger picture Bill is also breaking the trust of the community at large. as such the people of San Dimas would also demand that bill pay for his crime against the community trust. It is to this larger "communal trust" that you are seeking forgiveness from God.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:05 am
(February 26, 2013 at 10:59 am)Drich Wrote: If Bill cut the ball off of Ted, don't you think Ted's Father would also be mad at bill? Being the poilce Chief in that particular movie, I would say that bill would seek out the forgivness of Ted and His Father or face some serious Jail time.
No, I think the fathers opinion is irrelevant, the only forgiveness that counts is the forgiveness of the wronged.
Quote:Likewise when we sin we sin against God, for it is His standard being broken. Even when we sin against another person we are sinning against the one who created that person as well as the indivisual themselves.
Irrelevant.
Quote:Just like if Bill were to cut the balls off of Ted. Ted is being physically assulted, but in the larger picture Bill is also breaking the trust of the community at large. as such the people of San Dimas would also demand that bill pay for his crime against the community trust. It is to this larger "communal trust" that you are seeking forgiveness from God.
Again irrelevant.
The local law may be applied as local laws will, but he would not be "forgiven" of his crime, only punished or not as the local law demands. the only one with the right to forgive is the person directly wronged.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:13 am
An idea addressed by Robert Green Ingersoll over a century ago.
If I owe Smith ten dollars and God forgives me, that doesn't pay Smith.
Ignore Drippy. He suffers from terminal idiocy.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:17 am
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2013 at 11:20 am by Drich.)
(February 26, 2013 at 11:05 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: The local law may be applied as local laws will, but he would not be "forgiven" of his crime, only punished or not as the local law demands. the only one with the right to forgive is the person directly wronged.
If you had not ignorantly dismissed everything up to this point you might have been able to see the picture of forgiveness I was laying out for you on your own.
God has 'Laws' much like the local ones. (they just extend beyond the jursdictions that make local laws 'local.') And without Chirst/Forgiveness Much like the local laws, your crimes against God will not be forgiven. For it is with a greater more authoritive demand for a much more sever punishment than any local law can provide that we, in our unforgiven state face.
(February 26, 2013 at 11:13 am)Minimalist Wrote: An idea addressed by Robert Green Ingersoll over a century ago.
If I owe Smith ten dollars and God forgives me, that doesn't pay Smith.
Ignore Drippy. He suffers from terminal idiocy. non sequitur,
Why would God forgive Mr. Ingersol if he owed Mr. Smith money? It is not a sin to borrow money.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:21 am
Keep missing the point, Drippy. It is the only thing you excel at doing.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:54 am
(February 26, 2013 at 11:17 am)Drich Wrote: If you had not ignorantly dismissed everything up to this point you might have been able to see the picture of forgiveness I was laying out for you on your own.
Hey Drich, has it ever occurred to you that when people dismiss your points it's not because they're ignorant, but because your points are wrong?
Interestingly, it seems like you've dismissed the bulk of what Downbeatplumb said to you, but I guess it's only ignorant when people do it to you, huh?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 12:29 pm
Drich,
Why not complete your foolish excuses for an unjust god and tell us that Bill will rejoice in heaven after being forgiven for breaking god's rule; while, Ted will burn in hell for being aggrieved instead of immediately offering Bill his other nut as I'm sure Jesus would surely have done?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm
(February 26, 2013 at 11:54 am)Esquilax Wrote: (February 26, 2013 at 11:17 am)Drich Wrote: If you had not ignorantly dismissed everything up to this point you might have been able to see the picture of forgiveness I was laying out for you on your own.
Hey Drich, has it ever occurred to you that when people dismiss your points it's not because they're ignorant, but because your points are wrong?
Interestingly, it seems like you've dismissed the bulk of what Downbeatplumb said to you, but I guess it's only ignorant when people do it to you, huh? Ignorant  adj) uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field
Dismiss v) bar from attention or consideration
To Ignorantly Dismiss is to 'bar from attention' on the grounds of a lack of knoweledge.
In otherwords I was addressing the OP's embrace, of a his lack of knoweledge, on the subject being discussed. If he had considered what was being said rather than dismissing what he did not understand, he could have been in a position to come to the same conclusion I had to spell out for him.
Why ask a question when it is your intention to embrace your ignorance no matter what is said?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 1:13 pm
(February 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm)Drich Wrote: Why ask a question when it is your intention to embrace your ignorance no matter what is said?
Drich,
I'm likely wasting my time with this, but will try to frame Downbeat's inquiry in a way you might understand.
Given:
1. Bill lopped off Ted's nut.
2. God exists and has a rule against assault.
3. Bill seeks forgiveness from the aggrieved.
God is aggrieved because his rule was broken. I concede that only god can grant forgiveness for his rule being broken, but this wasn't the grievance being addressed in the OP.
The OP was addressing Ted's grievance: missing nut. Only Ted has the power of forgiveness regarding this grievance.
Do you understand and agree?
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