Am I a "liberal"?

[bozo]

Re. affirmative action, let's take an occupation like the police. A very small percentage indeed of the police is anything other than British white. Considering our multi-cultural society, don't you think there should me more differently-coloured coppers? Why aren't there? How can we ensure there are?

Our census of 2001 says that 85.67% of the population are White (British), and a further 5.27% are White (Other). Given this information, I would expect a "very small" percentage of the police to have "coloured coppers".

As to your question "don't you think there should be more?", I say no; I don't think we should hire on the basis of race. As for why there aren't more, I think the demographics of the country possibly come into consideration, but there may be other reasons. Perhaps there are a higher number of black people who don't want to work in law enforcement. I also see no reason why we should ensure that there are more. If black people aren't coming to a police job interview, that is their own business. If black people are coming to a police job interview and are being outdone by a white candidate, give the job to the white candidate (the more qualified). I want my police force to be the best, not a shambles of people from different ethnic cultures that are only there because of affirmative action.

Hire the best candidate, regardless of skin colour.

I dont undrstand your quote about 5.27% of the population being White ( other ). You don't mention blacks or other non-whites. I don't have the statistics to hand but WE ARE MULTICULTURAL and yet the police force, a very important part of our society, is almost exclusively white.If you don't see that as cause for concern, I despair.
As to why there aren't more non-white police, that is an interesting question. Could it just be that non-whites are not welcomed by plod?
I am not suggesting a " shambles of people " of different cultures should be enabled to join..do you have such a low opinion of other ethnic cultures that you say suh a thing? Are you suggesting there are not perfectly suitable candidates out there, who could be encouraged into the force?
Our cuntry s multicultural and all the richer for it.
Our police force should be more representative of the fact.

[Tiberius]

I dont undrstand your quote about 5.27% of the population being White ( other ). You don't mention blacks or other non-whites.

I didn't see the need to mention blacks or other non-whites. By simple addition, you can see that almost 91% of the population of the UK (according to the 2001 census) is white. Thus 9% is "non-white", and I said that give this statistic, I would expect the police to have a "very small" percentage of non-whites in their employ.

I don't have the statistics to hand but WE ARE MULTICULTURAL and yet the police force, a very important part of our society, is almost exclusively white.If you don't see that as cause for concern, I despair.

Yet I do have the statistics, I gave them to you in my response above. You only need to search "demographics of the UK" in Google to find them. Here is a wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_...#Ethnicity

The statistics say that almost 91% of the population is white, making the UK a predominantly non-multicultural society. We might have aspirations of being one, but that is completely different. The police force is almost exclusively white, but you would not expect anything different from a society that has a 91% white population. There are many black people in the police, but even if there were none at all, it wouldn't be a cause for concern unless you could show that the police force were purposefully not hiring black people. There could be many other factors that indicate why black people weren't joining, but the fact remains that in this society, there are black coppers.

As to why there aren't more non-white police, that is an interesting question. Could it just be that non-whites are not welcomed by plod?

According to a 2003 study, 2.92% of the police force are of an "ethnic minority". Why this figure is a third of the population's demographics is a question that should be asked, but to jump immediately to the conclusion that "the police are being discriminating" is absurd. If it were so, the question should be "why are there not 0.002% blacks in the police force?". 1.5% of the highest ranks are of an ethnic minority. Do you really think they would be there if there was job discrimination?

I am not suggesting a " shambles of people " of different cultures should be enabled to join..do you have such a low opinion of other ethnic cultures that you say suh a thing?

No, but what you are suggesting (and correct me if I am wrong) is that we should be actively seeking out and hiring people of ethnic minorities just because they are ethnic minorities. If you did that, you'd get shambles of people who are simply not good enough for police work, but who were hired over the rest because of their skin colour. As Kyu has said, affirmative action is racism.

Are you suggesting there are not perfectly suitable candidates out there, who could be encouraged into the force?

There are, and they should be encouraged. However the police should hire the people who are best qualified, not the people who they have low demographics on. I would prefer to see a well trained all-white police force than one made up of a shambles of unqualified black people who are there to fill up a demographic checkbox.

If you think that is racist, here is my other view. I would prefer to see a well trained black police force than one made up of a shambles of unqualified white people too!

I don't give two fucks about the colour of a person's skin. I care about providing a good service to the community, made up of the best people for the job. If the best people happen to be white, so be it. If they happen to be black, so be it!

[bozo]

Adrian,
The 2001 census is now 8 years old and I predict a higher % of non-whites next census.
There are parts of the country that are predominantly non-white and other areas, London, for example, with a high proportion of non-whites. We ARE a multicultural society, whether it suits you or not.
Even using your stats, nowhere near 1 in 10 coppers are non-white.
The police have a reputation for being chauvinist and racism has also been demonstrated on many occasions. Little wonder it is populated as it is.
I am suggesting affirmative action to recruit more ethnic recruits and to encouraging a change in police culture, so stuff you!
I don't give 2 fucks about your attitude to racism ( or much else ). We only agree on atheism, methinks.

[Meatball]

I have wished for a long time that our government would make being affiliated with a "gang" is the same as being a terrorist. Just being in a violent gang should be a crime.

That's some nice Libertarianism you've got there.

[Edwardo Piet]

Depends how "violent" they are - for instance, if they carry knives, then they're already breaking the law (at least here).

EDIT: Holy shit! In DLF's above post, I noticed the 'crime' part, but I didn't see the 'terrorist' part! Wow. Now whether it's a crime or not, as I said - depends on how violent they are...but fucking hell - to liken them with terrorists is another fucking matter! There is a matter of degree! There's a difference between 'thug' and 'terrorist'.

EvF

[bozo]

I have wished for a long time that our government would make being affiliated with a "gang" is the same as being a terrorist. Just being in a violent gang should be a crime.

That's some nice Libertarianism you've got there.

More like authoritarianism I think!

[Meatball]

Depends how "violent" they are - for instance, if they carry knives, then they're already breaking the law (at least here).

EDIT: Holy shit! In DLF's above post, I noticed the 'crime' part, but I didn't see the 'terrorist' part! Wow. Now whether it's a crime or not, as I said - depends on how violent they are...but fucking hell - to liken them with terrorists is another fucking matter! There is a matter of degree! There's a difference between 'thug' and 'terrorist'.

EvF

It's debatable whether or not associating with a violent gang should have penalties. But DLF claims to be a Libertarian.

I was pointing out that it's not really Libertarian-like lock up a peaceful person for associating with a gang. Definitely a victimless crime.

[Tiberius]

The 2001 census is now 8 years old and I predict a higher % of non-whites next census.

I predict a higher % of non-whites in the next police demographics report. The point was that we aren't a true multicultural country; we are predominantly white. America is far more of a multicultural society than the UK.

There are parts of the country that are predominantly non-white and other areas, London, for example, with a high proportion of non-whites. We ARE a multicultural society, whether it suits you or not.

Even in London, the population of non-white is only 30% (according to the Office for National Statistics 2006 estimate), and out of those, only 10% are "black"; the rest being mixed race, Chinese, Indian, etc. You say "whether it suits you or not" in a way that seems to me to suggest that I am somehow against multiculturalism. I'm not, I'm very pro-multiculturalism, but we aren't a multicultural society at all, and the statistics agree with me.

Even using your stats, nowhere near 1 in 10 coppers are non-white.

No, it is more like 1 in 33, but to say that this is caused by racism in the police force without doing a proper investigation and determining the causes it ludicrous. As I stated, there are non-whites in the highest ranking officers of the police force; clearly they have not been subjected to racism, or they wouldn't be there. You presume without any evidence to back up your opinions.

The police have a reputation for being chauvinist and racism has also been demonstrated on many occasions. Little wonder it is populated as it is.

Police have always had a reputation in some way or another. Having a reputation does not mean the reputation is valid or well-deserved. If you have evidence to back up your assertions, please present it.

I am suggesting affirmative action to recruit more ethnic recruits and to encouraging a change in police culture, so stuff you!

We should certainly change attitudes, but this is done through education, not through affirmative action. Affirmative action gives special treatment to people who do not deserve it. All people should be treated equally; that is the very value that should be at the heart of any anti-racism campaign, but it is ignored and replaced by the very thing that people are trying to fight against. Minorities should be encouraged, but their job should not be simply given to them because they are a minority. They should earn it in the same way everyone else does. To do otherwise is discrimination of the majority and is equally racist.

I don't give 2 fucks about your attitude to racism ( or much else ). We only agree on atheism, methinks.

I find your attitude to racism the exact opposite of promoting equality. You seek to highlight differences where there aren't any, and use these differences to discriminate against other people. You are as bad as the true racists out there imo.

It's debatable whether or not associating with a violent gang should have penalties. But DLF claims to be a Libertarian.

I was pointing out that it's not really Libertarian-like lock up a peaceful person for associating with a gang. Definitely a victimless crime.

It's not very Libertarian to support the death penalty either, but then I guess it's not very Libertarian to support public healthcare and I do. There is a lot of interpretation within Libertarianism itself.

[bozo]

Adrian,
We are multicultural. We are not all white. Your statistics do not prove your point.
You agree that the 1 in 33 is not 1 in 10.
The police have been taken to tribunals by women who suffered the chauvinist culture. Non-whites too have appeared.
The infamous tv documentary shown a couple of years ago showed racism at its worst exhibited by new recruits at a police training course....and the trainer was less than enthusiastic to stamp on it.
Do you ever escape the bubble you live in?
Your opinion of me? I could care less. The more you post on this, the more I suspect you may be in denial, like so many others are, of your racism.
The ex-football manager Ron Atkinson, who was caught using racist language about black footballers was given a chance to atone by being allowed to feature in a programme to show he wasn't racist. THE PROGRAMME SHOWED HE WAS, but he didn't see that he was. Many many people are like Ron Atkinson on this issue.

[Violet]

Actually... only albinos are 'white'... a lot of us are pink (or peach) though

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And very few of us are black, although i do see a considerable amount of dark brown

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Why don't we get over black and white complex...? We should have gotten over that in our middle teens...