Non-religious evidence for existence of God

[Foxaèr]

nothing created God, God is uncreated, if he was crated he would not be God , he would be a creation.

You are missing the point, because something cannot come from nothing. Science has done more in understanding the genesis of life than religion. Religion simply makes a deity claim and calls it a day due to lethargy. Science actually makes an effort to learn something new each day.

[Esquilax]

You are also missing the logical question in relation to what created god? God is not the answer simply because science has yet to reach the answer to how everything was created.

nothing created God, God is uncreated, if he was crated he would not be God , he would be a creation.

Let say that God was crated, then you would ask me, but who created the creator of God, lets continue,

then you would ask me who crated the creator of God, grandfather of God....you would continue ask me these question in eternity, no end, that is illogical, so we need an uncaused cause for the creation of universe.

Yes. That's the central illogical piece of your argument. It's an infinite regress, and the only way you get to pointing out your god as the creator of the universe is by demanding special dispensation for him from the rules you specified in order to prove his existence!

"Everything needs a creator, except this guy over here, because he said he doesn't..."

Besides, what makes you think that it's your pet deity responsible for the creation anyway? Last time I checked every religion claims that their god is eternal and created the universe, what makes the words in your holy book so special that they get more respect?

[ciko83]

explosions created disorder, while Big bang explosion created harmony, wich indicates that Big bang was controlled during explosion and expansion.

So... first off, the big bang wasn't a literal explosion, dude. Way to show your ignorance of the subject you're professing to know the absolute solution to.

what i believe i think is most logical, if someone can give better logical explantion i accept it, but i have not seen it yet and i have watched so many relgious-atheists debates and i have never seen an logical explanation from the atheists.

Have you, perchance, actually looked? All those complex things you say must be designed because complex things are always designed, have you actually bothered to do a single minute of research as to their evolutionary basis? Have you looked at the science, or just watched some debates? Because, I gotta tell ya, "atheist" is not a synonym of "scientist." I'm an atheist, but I'm a writer as my profession.

Also, those debates will generally not focus on the scientific basis for secular beliefs, but rather on the beliefs themselves, phrased around the existence of god; they aren't exactly one stop shops for scientific explanations. If you want one of those, go and do some research on the actual topic, or hell, ask us. I'm sure we'd be able to direct you to some things.

So... first off, the big bang wasn't a literal explosion, dude.

it is and expansion of matter, was it hot then , yes

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?re...2013-109#3

Planck Mission Brings Universe Into Sharp Focus


Planck launched in 2009 and has been scanning the skies ever since, mapping the cosmic microwave background, the afterglow of the theorized big bang that created our universe. This relic radiation provides scientists with a snapshot of the universe 370,000 years after the big bang. Light existed before this time, but it was locked in a hot plasma similar to a candle flame, which later cooled and set the light free


http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

THE BIG BANG
One of the most persistently asked questions has been: How was the universe created? Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however,no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning.

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.


does not matter if it is explosion or expansion, but the point is

from singularity------>expansion----->still expanding

just like God said in quran

God said this in quran.

Big bang

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then? 21-The Prophets, 30

have you actually bothered to do a single minute of research as to their evolutionary basis?

evolution was disproven long time ago, if you dont belive me you can see why evolution is wrong , even with photos as evidence
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/vi...65&start=0

[Darwinian]

If you're wondering why no-one has replied to your post for a long time it's simply because they have facepalmed so hard that they need some time to recover!

[ciko83]

nothing created God, God is uncreated, if he was crated he would not be God , he would be a creation.

Let say that God was crated, then you would ask me, but who created the creator of God, lets continue,

then you would ask me who crated the creator of God, grandfather of God....you would continue ask me these question in eternity, no end, that is illogical, so we need an uncaused cause for the creation of universe.

Yes. That's the central illogical piece of your argument. It's an infinite regress, and the only way you get to pointing out your god as the creator of the universe is by demanding special dispensation for him from the rules you specified in order to prove his existence!

"Everything needs a creator, except this guy over here, because he said he doesn't..."

Besides, what makes you think that it's your pet deity responsible for the creation anyway? Last time I checked every religion claims that their god is eternal and created the universe, what makes the words in your holy book so special that they get more respect?

"Everything needs a creator, except this guy over here, because he said he doesn't..."

but that is most logical explanation, if you say that it is not, then he is created, and we would start to ask who created all those creators, we would never stop, wich is illogical? so logically God is uncreated just like he said, and that is only a property of God, nobody else.

Besides, what makes you think that it's your pet deity responsible for the creation anyway?

beacuse i have studied quran for so long and come to conslusion that it is only book from him , unchanged and uncorrupted since the time of revelation and i have all evidence for that claim

God spoke about Big bang and epxnasion of universe in quran 1400 years ago before modern science confirmed it.

God said this in quran.

Big bang

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then? 21-The Prophets, 30

EXPANDING UNIVERSE

47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47

as you can see, God inform us about stuff long before our modern science do.

Last time I checked every religion claims that their god is eternal and created the universe, what makes the words in your holy book so special that they get more respect?

there is only One God, we all worship same God, but people try to complicate sometime so they confuse themselves and others.

Why do i believe that Quran is only book special and is from God?

as i said i have studied it for so long, and i have seen evidence for it.


evidence that quran is from God are:

1. Quran contains scientific miracles wich modern science confirms, like Big bang, expanding universe, pulsars and many many other scientific stuff wich no man could know in 6th century without telescopes and microscopes

2. Quran is programmed mathematically that chapter numbers, verse numbers and text cooperate with eachother is so complex patterns that it is impossible to make such book today with our computers.

examples








3. Quran speak about future and Muhammed told us about future stuff wich we know can see, and i saw yesterday something wich muhammed foretold 1400 years ago.

examples:

Signs of Judgment day,prophecies from Muhammed,with evidence
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/vi...54&start=0

Talking shoes prophecy

By Him in Whose Hand is my soul, the Hour will not come until a man’s whip and shoes talk to him, and his thigh will tell him about what happened to his family after he left!” (Tirmizi, Fitten 19, Hadith 2182).

It was reported from Abu Sa'id that the Prophet (Muhammed) said: "The Hour will not come until the time when a man will leave his home, and his shoes or whip or stick will tell what is happening to his family." (Ahmad).

but look here







4. Quran is logical book, forbids what is harmful to humans even though they are anware that it is harmful to them, and allows them stuff wich are good to them even though they are not aware sometime that there is benefits in what God commands.

example: Pork is forbidden in quran

but why, science tells you why




5. No errors and mistakes in quran, nor contradictions. i can explain every single so called error in quran.

6. Miracles of Muhammed during his life time


if you have more questions feel free to ask.

[Freddy]

1. You are using the fallacy of equivalence in your analogy
2. In your analogy you like things that are made, to things that are created and there is no rational justification for such an assumption.
3, We as ppl have no comparison as the universe is the only thing that, ans this is not a concession, seams 2 have come from nowhere, so no analogy will ever suffice.

[ciko83]

If you're wondering why no-one has replied to your post for a long time it's simply because they have facepalmed so hard that they need some time to recover!

here is question for you

How could non-thining nature create natural engine with 40 parts joined on correct places? how could nature put these parts like puzzles on correct places, logically inteklectual being iis that who think like that?

[Darwinian]

If you're wondering why no-one has replied to your post for a long time it's simply because they have facepalmed so hard that they need some time to recover!

Your reply, like your creator, seems non-existent

[Esquilax]

have you actually bothered to do a single minute of research as to their evolutionary basis?

evolution was disproven long time ago, if you dont belive me you can see why evolution is wrong , even with photos as evidence
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/vi...65&start=0

GAH!

Dude, don't just post a link like that without warning! I can't handle the level of ignorance in there without preparation! Anyway, here's my answering link: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

So let me ask my question again: have you even spent a single minute researching the science behind this stuff? Not biased creationist reports on what's wrong with evolution (I saw many that I recognized in your post, all of them previously debunked) but actual scientific journals. Unbiased ones- and before you start saying that the scientific community is biased toward atheism I would point out that there are plenty of christian scientists, most of whom agree with the conclusions of evolutionary theory- that just show the facts, instead of misrepresenting or misunderstanding them, like literally every one of the things you said in that post did. I seriously suggest you do that.

It'd take way, way too long to go down the line and debunk each of the claims you linked to in turn, but the fact is, I could do it. Me, Esquilax the non-scientist could do it, because I'd actually bothered to research before I made my claims. I'll just do one, for funsies and to prove my chops: you claim that so-called "living fossils," disprove evolution, because their forms remained relatively stable over the millenia. That's an easy one; do you know what an evolutionary niche is?

I doubt it, so let me explain: some organisms have it just about right. Evolution doesn't just happen willy-nilly, you see; actual evolutionary shifts occur due to the mutation in question providing a demonstrable benefit to the organism. That's natural selection at work. But some creatures don't have sufficient pressure acting against them- there's no predator for sharks, for example, and so the shark form has been in use for ages- and hence there's no selection criteria to prompt the change. Bear in mind, still a layman here. I'm sure there are more scientifically literate people out there that would do better.

But I think I've proved my point, no?

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but that is most logical explanation, if you say that it is not, then he is created, and we would start to ask who created all those creators, we would never stop, wich is illogical? so logically God is uncreated just like he said, and that is only a property of God, nobody else.

It's nowhere near the most logical answer, because there's no logic to it! What you're doing is assuming there's a god, and then making your argument fit that, rather than following reality.

For example, what if there's just no god? Ever even consider that? What if the science we have now shows us what happened- real science by the way, not your misunderstanding of science- and you're just talking a whole bunch of nothing? Stop just assuming that your god exists and going from there, that's the definition of illogical.

beacuse i have studied quran for so long and come to conslusion that it is only book from him , unchanged and uncorrupted since the time of revelation and i have all evidence for that claim

So because your single, biased source says that he's real, he's therefore real? That's incredibly fallacious. Not even worth rebutting, really: you know there are even older books than the quran which claim their god is the one that created the universe. Why are they wrong but you're right?

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here is question for you

How could non-thining nature create natural engine with 40 parts joined on correct places? how could nature put these parts like puzzles on correct places, logically inteklectual being iis that who think like that?

Do me a favor: point one out. Show me an organism that's like that, and I will go out and find you its evolutionary antecedents. I promise. Give me something to work with, and watch me go.

[ciko83]

Dude, don't just post a link like that without warning! I can't handle the level of ignorance in there without preparation!

prove me wrong if you can.

So let me ask my question again: have you even spent a single minute researching the science behind this stuff?

i have studied science enough to make my own judgments what i beleive and what i cant beleive.

It'd take way, way too long to go down the line and debunk each of the claims you linked to in turn, but the fact is, I could do it.

let try with this one

How could non-thining nature create natural engine with 40 parts joined on correct places? how could nature put these parts like puzzles on correct places, logically inteklectual being iis that who think like that?

What is the evolutionary mechanism wich gives instructions to different parts of the natural engine so they connect on correct places so the engine could work properlly?

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For example, what if there's just no god? Ever even consider that? What if the science we have now shows us what happened- real science by the way, not your misunderstanding of science- and you're just talking a whole bunch of nothing? Stop just assuming that your god exists and going from there, that's the definition of illogical.

yes i have consider that, but that would be illogical for me to believe, why beacuse all this nature cooparateing with eachother and why we are here would be illogical, why are we here on earth then, what is our purpose? no answer from atheists.

but when i attach God to this, then stuff becomes clear and logical.

Stop just assuming that your god exists and going from there, that's the definition of illogical

let say, that God does not exists, shall we

and then we study nature and find out this


then we ask our selves, how could nature put all those parts on correct places, or how could this natural engine create itself it would be the same question as Can you mother give birth to herself. totally illogical
but then you say DNA, but how could DNA do it?

imagine DNA(machine)

so machine(DNA) created car(natural engine) in the factory(nature) without God/Engeener, is this logical???

Atheistic half truth
>>>>>>Machine in the factory created the car<<<<<<

it is logical, only 50%, beacuse yes that is truth that

machine(DNA) created car(natural engine) in the factory(nature) but they forgot to connect it to God/Engeener

without God/engener it is illogical. Athestic belief system is very weak if you know real arguments

Religous 100% truth
>>>>>>Engeners designed and created the car with machine in the factory<<<<<<

as you can see science leads towards God, but it ios you who dont want to admit that.

So because your single, biased source says that he's real, he's therefore real? That's incredibly fallacious. Not even worth rebutting, really: you know there are even older books than the quran which claim their god is the one that created the universe. Why are they wrong but you're right?

but science agrees with this bias source, so what can yyou do about it ??

you know there are even older books than the quran which claim their god is the one that created the universe

but God informed us in quran that he sent books to people before quran, so nothing strange that other books claim that God created universe. and by the way those older books were changed and corrupted , just like bible is.

Do me a favor: point one out. Show me an organism that's like that, and I will go out and find you its evolutionary antecedents. I promise. Give me something to work with, and watch me go.

here

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