Show me your proof

[Mystic]

My argument against "eternal divinity" is as follows:

1)"It's more praiseworthy to earn your praiseworthiness then not".
2)"Eternal praiseworthiness is not earned"
3)"Therefore temporal earned praiseworthiness is more praiseworthy than eternal praiseworthiness"

As for premise 1, I am unsure of it, because it just might be a preference I have with regards to praise.

If 3, is true, then why worship something we can be more praiseworthy than?

[Mr_Dew7]

I mean:

Why should I believe in something that cannot be proven?

Well I believe it can be proven. There is evidence that one can find if that one is willing to seek and research. But I realize also that evidence against God can be found. In any case, believe what you will, but I have seen the proof, and so it has been proven to me. I believe one of my first deciding factors in seeking God, was that I wanted to find out if I would cease to exist or not, and I have come to the conclusion that I will not, and neither will anyone else. That is where my proof has led me. And I can attest to the miracles, signs and wonders that God uses to prove His existence, but then you wouldn't believe me without seeing it for yourself, am I right? That is why I say that one must seek the Truth for oneself. Oh, and thanks for clarifying!

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The most problematic feature of God is supposed omnipotence. It's inherently paradoxical. If God is omnipotent, can he create a stone he cannot lift?

To add further difficulty to the matter is the problem of evil.

As Epicurus said,
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

As I posted earlier in this thread, a paradox by nature and definition is something that is at first contradictory of itself, but is still true. And yes, wouldn't you expect an omnipotent, which is defined as having ultimate power, God to be able to use His ultimate power for whatever He desires. The paradox of whether or not God can create a stone that He cannot lift is simple if you realize that with ultimate power, one can do the impossible. So yes, He can create such a stone that is too heavy for Him to lift, and then if He desires, He can lift said stone. Impossible becomes possible with ultimate power!! God is willing to prevent evil, and does on a daily basis. Why would He do so for those who despise and disbelieve in Him? He is able, as is expected from an omnipotent being. Evil comes to those who do not take the opportunity God has given them to be free of it. There will be a time and place in which evil will be no more, but just because we are impatient and limited in our ways doesn't mean that there is no God.

[Zen Badger]

I am just a Christian. No denomination at all. I simply believe in and try hard to live by what Gods Word says.

Which word would that be?

The one where he commands that a rape victim marries her attacker?

Or that some-one who works on a Sunday be stoned to death?

What about the one where god kills all of the Egyptian children because Pharaoh won't release the jews even though god has caused Pharaoh not to(by hardening his heart)?

Or that bats are actually birds and not mammals as those evil scientists would have you believe?

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

I mean:

Why should I believe in something that cannot be proven?

Well I believe it can be proven.

Oh, well, if you believe it, it must be true.

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God is willing to prevent evil, and does on a daily basis. Why would He do so for those who despise and disbelieve in Him? He is able, as is expected from an omnipotent being. Evil comes to those who do not take the opportunity God has given them to be free of it. There will be a time and place in which evil will be no more, but just because we are impatient and limited in our ways doesn't mean that there is no God.

Then your God is as a petty child, and not worthy of worship.

Furthermore, this is demonstrably false. Evil in the world still exists and effects believers as much as anyone. See: pedophiles in the Catholic church raping alter boys.

[Mr_Dew7]

My argument against "eternal divinity" is as follows:

1)"It's more praiseworthy to earn your praiseworthiness then not".

Okay, more praiseworth to earn praisworthiness than to not earn praisworthiness. So it is more honorable to become honorable, than to not be honorable? Agreed.

2)"Eternal praiseworthiness is not earned"

What? What cannot be earned is given by the Father. If He deems it necessary. As far as I am concerned, there is only one who is eternally praiseworthy, and that is the only one who has the ability to give said praiseworthiness away as a gift to those He deems fit, if there were ever such a person.

3)"Therefore temporal earned praiseworthiness is more praiseworthy than eternal praiseworthiness"

So being praise worthy in this present life is more praise worthy than being eternally praise worthy, because eternal praiseworthiness is a gift and it is not earned? Refer to bottom.

As for premise 1, I am unsure of it, because it just might be a preference I have with regards to praise.

If 3, is true, then why worship something we can be more praiseworthy than?

I believe that any gift from God is in essence of God, so it is absolutely worth more than anything we could earn on our own. So I don't believe that we can ever be more praiseworthy than the One who is eternally praiseworthy and gives eternal praiseworthiness to those whom He deems worthy of said praiseworthiness if such a person could or would ever exist. The only one He has made eternally praiseworthy is His son, Jesus. But that is in essence no different than giving His own gift to Himself, because Jesus is a part of Him who holds the power to give gifts.

[Mystic]

Mr_Drew, it doesn't make sense to agree on the first premise, also agree that eternal praiseworthiness is not earned, and then reject the conclusion.

You agreed earning praiseworthiness is more worthy than not.
You agreed eternal praiseworthiness is not earned.

The conclusion necessarily follows from that.

So which of these two premises do you disagree with? Because, from your post, it seemed you agreed with both, but just disliked the conclusion and opposed that. I dislike the conclusion as well, but I don't oppose it, because it seems true to me.

[Something completely different]

Well I believe it can be proven. There is evidence that one can find if that one is willing to seek and research.

And why wont you show that evidence?

But I realize also that evidence against God can be found.

Against the gods, not god, dont forget that yours isnt the only existing religion.

In any case, believe what you will,

Let me get this strait: You challenge the atheism of the forum members here, and when the challenge has been met and the questions are brought back to you - you chicken out?

but I have seen the proof, and so it has been proven to me. I believe one of my first deciding factors in seeking God, was that I wanted to find out if I would cease to exist or not, and I have come to the conclusion that I will not, and neither will anyone else.

What?????

The questions you ask yourself while on the toilet and the answeres you give them yourself do not stand in any way as conclusive evidence. They are simply your own mindgames.

That is where my proof has led me. And I can attest to the miracles, signs and wonders that God uses to prove His existence, but then you wouldn't believe me without seeing it for yourself, am I right? That is why I say that one must seek the Truth for oneself. Oh, and thanks for clarifying!

In other words, you dont have any evidence to put forward and try to rephrase it in a ay which makes you sound as if you hadnt just challeneged the non-evidence of others, without even being capable of proving your own stuff.

[Mr_Dew7]

I am just a Christian. No denomination at all. I simply believe in and try hard to live by what Gods Word says.

Which word would that be?

The one where he commands that a rape victim marries her attacker?

Or that some-one who works on a Sunday be stoned to death?

What about the one where god kills all of the Egyptian children because Pharaoh won't release the jews even though god has caused Pharaoh not to(by hardening his heart)?

Or that bats are actually birds and not mammals as those evil scientists would have you believe?

Hmm.. There is this little thing.. What was that called again? Oh yes!! The New Covenant, written of in the New Testament. Surely you have heard of it? I admit the OT is harsh, and I'm glad that I don't live in those times. I don't pretend to understand the mind or will of God, but I am thankful that things changed. God is the Creator of life, so it is his to give and take away. Surely I can see that it was a harsh punishment, and yes, God did harden pharaoh's heart. He made and example out of him and egypt after he put to death every infant isrealite boy. The Isrealites were chosen by God as His favored people because Abraham was just enough in those horrific times to be righteous and live as Godly of a life as he could. So don't play sympathy on pharaoh when pharaoh struck the first murderous blow by killing all of the jew's infants. And what difference does it make if bats are birds or mammals? I don't care. And I certainly never referred to scientists as evil, now did I?

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Well I believe it can be proven.

Oh, well, if you believe it, it must be true.

---

God is willing to prevent evil, and does on a daily basis. Why would He do so for those who despise and disbelieve in Him? He is able, as is expected from an omnipotent being. Evil comes to those who do not take the opportunity God has given them to be free of it. There will be a time and place in which evil will be no more, but just because we are impatient and limited in our ways doesn't mean that there is no God.

Then your God is as a petty child, and not worthy of worship.

Furthermore, this is demonstrably false. Evil in the world still exists and effects believers as much as anyone. See: pedophiles in the Catholic church raping alter boys.

I dare to say that they are not true believers. And how would you know that it touches believers as much as it does not? Because I am a believer, and I will venture to say that it does not come near me nearly as much as to othes. If you don't believe it, then continue on not believing it. You will not change my beliefs. All you see is the members of the group that do wrong, not the ones that do right, and live right.

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Mr_Drew, it doesn't make sense to agree on the first premise, also agree that eternal praiseworthiness is not earned, and then reject the conclusion.

You agreed earning praiseworthiness is more worthy than not.
You agreed eternal praiseworthiness is not earned.

The conclusion necessarily follows from that.

So which of these two premises do you disagree with? Because, from your post, it seemed you agreed with both, but just disliked the conclusion and opposed that. I dislike the conclusion as well, but I don't oppose it, because it seems true to me.

I agree that no one is worthy eternal praiseworthiness except God. If He deems it necessary to bestow upon someone the gift of eternal praisworthiness, then so be it. It is not up to me to decide. I feel that no one on earth is worthy of it. But as I said, should it be given, it is worth far more than anything that can be earned on earth. So no, temporal praiseworthiness is not more praiseworthy than eternal praiseworthiness.

[Mystic]

So you disagree with the premise that earning praiseworthiness is more worthy than just having praiseworthiness without earning it?

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Hey, everyone, True Believers™ do not get raped!