Show me your proof

[Darkstar]

So you can't actually be convinced that god exists until you already believe he does? Awfully convenient...

I wish you could try and understand what is written. Did I not list faith first, please check it out and let me know.

By convince I meant "confirm" (as in confirmation bias)

With enough faith you can lead yourself to believe anything. Confirmation bias follows.

Just curious, but as to the now atheists former theists who had faith for a long time and found nothing, how would you respond? (and given your justification, is it falsifiable, or an arbitrary one like saying they did something wrong without specifying what?)

[Faith No More]

How do you know the elephant was there when it left no trace, now you might not consider the Bible, but I do. Faith leads to belief, belief to knowledge, knowledge to revelation. You must do things in a proper order, please revise your statement.

The prophet of the elephant had a visitation from an angel who revealed the existence of the elephant. The prophet is my Aunt Matilda, who I trust on matters of life and death and who has no previous history of mental illness. Why would she lie about something like that? Why would an angel lie about something like that?

You forgot the part where you searched your heart and your heart told you that the elephant absolutely exists.

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Oh, and anyone that doesn't see the elephant simply hasn't sought it out in the proper manner, and it doesn't reveal itself to those who doubt his existence.

[Fruity]

Godschild Wrote:

Was interested in your thoughts since you believe that Christians are persons brainwashed from birth and not all become Christians as children.

I did not say all Christians are brainwashed since birth. I said most Christians I know. I also know a few who were not brainwashed into it, but went into it on their own. Read what I said again.

Godschild wrote:

I do have another question, do you believe in free will, most nonbelievers argue against it whether they believe it or not. I see you mentioned it indirectly in your above answer.

I must confess I used the term "own will" freely, failing to remember how some theists in these forums like to change the subject when they notice that they have nothing to say to defend their beliefs from something that was explained to them. It's fine, though. I'm fine going down this road if you like and prefer to not explain your god's intentions when not helping my family or myself, further explaining that god does indeed exist.

Let's see. Free will is a complex subject. First we have all the chemical processes that happen in our brain. This is where some atheists argue that there is no free will. The brain functions accordingly to the chemical activity and everything we do supposedly is the result of this. I work in the behavioral health field. I am a mentor for children with behavioral health needs. I have learned that yes, much of what we do is a result of the process of brain activity, but there is also another side to it. What we learn and what we want to learn. For example, a child who suffers from depression. We consider the hormone activity that affects the chemical balance. We also use therapy, family support, life skills practice, etc. Children learn how to detect symptoms, how to react to them, and how to move on. We might see a person who decides that she is tired of being depressed and so she begins to put in every effort to get better. She had a choice. To allow herself to rot, or to work on feeling better. Yes, the way the brain works can lead the direction of our lives when it comes to personality, character, and many of our decisions, but what we receive from the outside world, what wee learn can also have an affect if we want it to. It's like my new laptop. She (it's a girl) came with all kinds of prearranged attributes. I went ahead and installed some programs. If I were to not have it protected, it might catch a virus. Etc, etc. So... do I believe in free will? I believe we operate according to the messages that our brain sends us, which operates according to the messages that all that other mumbo jumbo send it. We can manipulate the process to a certain degree by using what we have learned and applying it. It's sort of like fixing my laptop. It might catch a virus, but I can get it fixed. No excuses. Unless it plain dry dies. Then there's no turning back.

However, I, unlike most Christians I know (note, I said most, godschild), am open to more information that might reveal that I am wrong.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I just want to see what proof you have for or against God. Not intending to turn this into a nasty debate, I just want to hear what you all have to say about the subject of the God that I believe in, from every religious view. If you would be so kind!

In short, it's your crazy idea that your version of whatever god you worship exists, it's your responsibility to prove it to us that you're not just believing in a delusion.

[Baalzebutt]

Let's see. Free will is a complex subject. First we have all the chemical processes that happen in our brain. This is where some atheists argue that there is no free will. The brain functions accordingly to the chemical activity and everything we do supposedly is the result of this.

I agree with most of what you said but I have to disagree with your reasoning.

The decision to make changes, to help ourselves "get better" or change something in ourselves through education, is also a process of brain chemistry. There is no decision we make, no action we take, not thought that we think that is NOT a function of the brain.

Your last thought is correct. Though we can MANIPULATE how our brain functions we are, ultimately, a product of our brain chemistry. In fact, it takes brain chemistry to manipulate how our brains function. Imbalanced, educated, physically damaged...it doesn't matter. We still make decisions via our brains and they are made of free will because we are a product of our brains.

[Fruity]

Baalzebutt wrote:

We still make decisions via our brains and they are made of free will because we are a product of our brains

At first your last statement was confusing, but I went back to read your previous posts and I understand your point now.

So, to me, we can manipulate our brains (that operate via genes, chemistry, etc) via experiences (things we learn). You say we are our brains, so when we manipulate our brain, really what is happening is that our brain is manipulating itself. Did I get that right? So, since our brain is manipulating itself and we are our brain, it's free will. Correct? Sort of like a brain with arms and legs walking around (and a nose, and mouth, and hands, and...).

[Mystic]

Because we experience time in a linear fashion, one must assume that the future does not exist.

Maybe true, perhaps you can elaborate? Because I don't understand how it implies the future doesn't exist if we experience it in a linear fashion.

From a naturalistic point of view, our brains function on a cocktail of chemicals. These chemicals not only influence, but are the deciding factor in the decisions we make. To remove the decision making process from its biological element is to presuppose the existence of the soul, which, by naturalistic standards, does not exist. The implication here is that we are somehow prisoners of our brains when, in point of fact, we ARE our brains. Therefore, the decisions we make are necessarily of free will, as dictated by our brain regardless of chemistry or physical damage.

I don't see how the conclusion follows. I'm not going to try to prove the opposite, but I don't see because we our brains or produced by the brain, that somehow it implies we are free. What makes you think if the brain is free, we are deciding things as opposed to seemingly getting the impression we are deciding?

Perhaps we need to define "free will". By your argument, it appears that in order to have free will we must be absolutely unencumbered by brain chemistry or any other factor that might influence us. This, however, is an impossibility because, aside from living in a complete vacuum, we are influenced by outside forces.

So, just to be clear, what is your idea of free will?

My idea is not that we decide things in a vacuum. But that in our decisions, there is some will that can choose between decisions, some generated freedom, that we aren't helpless to chose otherwise and get the impression that we chose because it's according to our will. Moreover it's the ability to will our will.

[fr0d0]

Here is an example of an Atheist with more faith than me.

Can you prove free-will exists or explain how you are justified in knowing it exists for certain?

Without the omnipotence of a god, there is no foreknowledge or predetermination. Therefore, we are free to choose our actions which will lead us down an unknown path to an unknown future.

As soon as the path and future are known, by anyone or anything, our ability to choose is eliminated. With a deity, our path is inevitable and free will does not exist. Without a deity, our path is unknown and necessarily advances based on free will.

You have no choice but to act in linear form. Every small action you perform, and decision you make, is a direct result of previous influence. Even in the most balanced decision, the choice you make is the choice you would always have made. You are incapable of going against this. So to say that you have free will is completely wrong.

What you are, unless restricted, is a free agent to act as your will dictates.

[Baalzebutt]

So, to me, we can manipulate our brains (that operate via genes, chemistry, etc) via experiences (things we learn). You say we are our brains, so when we manipulate our brain, really what is happening is that our brain is manipulating itself. Did I get that right? So, since our brain is manipulating itself and we are our brain, it's free will. Correct? Sort of like a brain with arms and legs walking around (and a nose, and mouth, and hands, and...).

Essentially correct.

A brain with various input devices.

I had written a bunch more here but putting what I have in my head down on paper (so to speak) is a difficult task. It makes sense in my head but sounds ridiculous in print. I need to work this out so I can present a reasonable argument that makes sense...

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Without the omnipotence of a god, there is no foreknowledge or predetermination. Therefore, we are free to choose our actions which will lead us down an unknown path to an unknown future.

As soon as the path and future are known, by anyone or anything, our ability to choose is eliminated. With a deity, our path is inevitable and free will does not exist. Without a deity, our path is unknown and necessarily advances based on free will.

You have no choice but to act in linear form. Every small action you perform, and decision you make, is a direct result of previous influence. Even in the most balanced decision, the choice you make is the choice you would always have made. You are incapable of going against this. So to say that you have free will is completely wrong.

What you are, unless restricted, is a free agent to act as your will dictates.

Again, i find myself lacking a cohesive explanation of my thoughts. I know what I want to say but cant get it out and still make sense.

Would you mind terribly if I asked you to crawl into my head for a moment so you can see what I am thinking?

[fr0d0]

You had no choice but to write that, and reach that conclusion at this point.