1984 & A/S/K revisited

[Godscreated]

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I was raised in church and became a Christian as a teenager, much later than most at my church. By the time I graduated from high school I left church and found the world and lived as the world for years. Returned to church and found a true relationship with Christ. This is the short of it, would take to long to write the details as they are many.

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Thus confirming the start of my description of you:

You get the info from other people that there is a divine entity which is invisible, untouchable and, basically, has no measurable physical interaction with our world, but it's out there, somewhere.

Of coarse, how do you learn, are you completely self taught, that would require no books, dvd, computer and ect. Being introduced to things and being pushed into things are two very different experiences. My parents nor anyone else pushed me into Christianity, I was allowed to search and sort things out for myself, wise parents are a blessing.

What comes next?...
Define your deity for me, please.
Characterize how it interacts with our world, what sort of proof do you have for its existence that makes you stand by such existence so avidly.

What comes next, interesting question, wish I knew, God has something for me but at this moment I have no idea what that will be.
A better question would be what now, I will continue to help people with drug and alcohol problems as God sends them to me, most unfortunately do not listen and continue in lives that haunt even an ex-druggie like me. I will continue to study scripture and stay in prayer, in this I will be given more knowledge about who God is. I always look in anticipation for such wonderful revelation whether it comes from scripture, life or however God chooses to teach me. This interaction with God is just part of our relationship, many things happen in my life that I know is the work of God. God works in this world in many ways with billions of people, what I see is mostly from those closes to me.

Define God, can't you find a harder question to ask, God is as He describes himself spirit, the only thing I can tell you about Him being spirit is He is not physical and thus not bound by the laws of this universe. God is love, truth, kindhearted, eternal, patient, long suffering, forgiving, all knowing, all powerful, generous, provider, loving guide, fortress against evil, promise keeper, solid foundation, comforter, shoulder to cry on, blesses and a blessing, sovereign, source of knowledge and wisdom, teacher, fountain to quench thirst, faithful, breath of life, just judge, redeemer, creator, my joy, freedom, savior, light and on and on I could go. Now these things are not what God is, they are who He is, He is our standard and no one can live up to this standard, that's why he is savior.

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There is no condition in what I stated, you are wanting to see something that's not there to make your argument valid in your own mind. You have free will till you die or Christ returns, which ever comes first.
Actually there is nothing to laugh about, it's sad when people ignore God's truth.

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Just in case you missed my post I decided to use the reply of one of your posts godschild so to make sure whether you are avoiding my questions just like Drich did in his avoiding question thread or just missed it.

I answered your question in post #101.

[Waratah]

Let us focus on what you said godschild, all of it not just part of it.


You have stated quite clearly and consistently that when christ returns you will lose free will. I accept and understand that is what you have said.

Directly after saying that you stated the reason for the loss of free will is due to 'rejection of god'. So far you continue to just ignore this part. Why?

I can easily accept the when you die part you lose free will. Can you please tell me the reason for losing free will when christ returns if it is not because of the rejection of god as you have stated before?

When Christ returns the time for repentance for those who have rejected Christ is over, the ones who want the physical proof will have it, however it want count for much except they get their proof. Remember that scripture teaches salvation comes through faith not proof.
If the knowledge of God is what confuses you in what I've said let me explain. Salvation comes through faith, after this one can come into a belief of God through scripture and prayer, after this one can come to a knowledge of who God is through His revelation whether in scripture or a life situation or direct revelation. Knowledge of God comes after salvation, some times many years, it depends upon the persons desire. I hope this answers your question.

Sorry about that godschild. Totally missed it. But really you have only responded to the question and have totally avoided actually answering the questions since we are talking about free will.

You stated that the reason you lose free will is because of the rejection of god, correct?

We all know the answer is yes because that is what you said. It has became quite clear that if you cannot see that is a condition of "free will", which then throws free will out the window then you are blinded by your faith and you have no ability to reason things out.

[Godscreated]

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When Christ returns the time for repentance for those who have rejected Christ is over, the ones who want the physical proof will have it, however it want count for much except they get their proof. Remember that scripture teaches salvation comes through faith not proof.
If the knowledge of God is what confuses you in what I've said let me explain. Salvation comes through faith, after this one can come into a belief of God through scripture and prayer, after this one can come to a knowledge of who God is through His revelation whether in scripture or a life situation or direct revelation. Knowledge of God comes after salvation, some times many years, it depends upon the persons desire. I hope this answers your question.

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Sorry about that godschild. Totally missed it. But really you have only responded to the question and have totally avoided actually answering the questions since we are talking about free will.

You stated that the reason you lose free will is because of the rejection of god, correct?

We all know the answer is yes because that is what you said. It has became quite clear that if you cannot see that is a condition of "free will", which then throws free will out the window then you are blinded by your faith and you have no ability to reason things out.

Yes, I have not denied it. I actually answered your question in my first sentence. Ability to repent = free will choice, you keep this free will choice until you die or the return of Christ, my reasoning is fine this is stated in scripture and it's not my fault you do not want to accept it. The free will we're talking about is from scripture, so why wouldn't you want to find the answer there.

[Esquilax]

Not literally, no. But what else would you call a choice like this: "You can believe in me or not, you've got free will. But if you don't believe in me, I'm going to send you to a magical land full of pain and suffering when you die, and that'll never end." How can you possibly think that this choice is fair and balanced in any way? How is it that you're unable to see the threat there, the "gun" I was talking about?

If a criminal approached me and offered me a choice thusly: "You can give me your wallet or not, but if you don't I'm going to kneecap you," and I get kneecapped, would you think it's my fault? "What do you want from the guy? He told you what would happen if you didn't give him your wallet!"

The reality of the situation is that, according to your theology, I've been forced into a choice I never wanted, and given heavily punitive measures if I opt to choose one option. How can you possibly think this is consistent with actual free will?

You're comparing God to a criminal, God is not trying to rob you, He wants you to come into a relationship with Him, you don't have to. This entire universe belongs to God everything, even your life. He gave you your life and He has given you everything you have, what kind of criminal gives. Your rejection of His love is where one goes wrong.

So, essentially your answer to my question about the criminal is "yes, I would do exactly that." Hardly a surprising answer, you do see desperate to scrabble to the defense of your god and his every misbehavior. Awfully hard to keep up a rational conversation with someone who's doing that, though.

Also, could you maybe try to be less literal? I'm not implying that god is trying to rob anyone, but that the choice he's offering is just as weighted and unreasonable as the criminal's. In both scenarios you're being positioned to accept one option that you don't necessarily want via the threat of suffering if you choose the alternative.

[Waratah]

Sorry about that godschild. Totally missed it. But really you have only responded to the question and have totally avoided actually answering the questions since we are talking about free will.

You stated that the reason you lose free will is because of the rejection of god, correct?

We all know the answer is yes because that is what you said. It has became quite clear that if you cannot see that is a condition of "free will", which then throws free will out the window then you are blinded by your faith and you have no ability to reason things out.

Yes, I have not denied it. I actually answered your question in my first sentence. Ability to repent = free will choice, you keep this free will choice until you die or the return of Christ, my reasoning is fine this is stated in scripture and it's not my fault you do not want to accept it. The free will we're talking about is from scripture, so why wouldn't you want to find the answer there.

Glad you accept that the rejection of god means that when christ returns then you will lose free will which is not free will really then. Simple isn't it.

My posts have all been about your statement, not scripture. Your choices are as far as I can see are:

* Accept what you wrote was a mistake and state what you really meant. In your own words please, not scripture. Think for yourself, it really is a great thing to do.

* Convince me that my interpretation is incorrect. Have not even attempted to do that.

* Accept my interpretation.


Please remember you are the one that said "...price of rejection people will pay..." which is a cost. NOT FREE. CONDITIONAL. See easy.

I know it is easy but I don't think you will be able to understand being a sheeple.

[Tonus]

Glad you accept that the rejection of god means that when christ returns then you will lose free will which is not free will really then. Simple isn't it.

I think Esquilax has it right-- it's not that we don't have free will in GC's scenario; it's that the choice we're offered is no choice at all, and therefore free will is superfluous. It's meaningless. "Serve me and get the best reward imaginable, or reject me and get the worst punishment imaginable-- you are free to choose."

People who freely reject the offer do not do so on the basis of the offer itself, but on other considerations-- primarily their understanding of the nature of the person making the offer. If you were given the choice based solely on the offer (super awesome reward versus worst punishment ever) then there is no choice. You take the reward every time. Even rats can be trained to press a button to get food, or to avoid pressing a button if it delivers pain.

[Godscreated]

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Yes, I have not denied it. I actually answered your question in my first sentence. Ability to repent = free will choice, you keep this free will choice until you die or the return of Christ, my reasoning is fine this is stated in scripture and it's not my fault you do not want to accept it. The free will we're talking about is from scripture, so why wouldn't you want to find the answer there.

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Glad you accept that the rejection of god means that when christ returns then you will lose free will which is not free will really then. Simple isn't it.

This is my original statement not your's, so I did not have to accept it, I've known this for years. Yes it's free will, you may die before the return of Christ, remember you've already made a statement about losing free will at death.

My posts have all been about your statement, not scripture. Your choices are as far as I can see are:

* Accept what you wrote was a mistake and state what you really meant. In your own words please, not scripture. Think for yourself, it really is a great thing to do.

* Convince me that my interpretation is incorrect. Have not even attempted to do that.

* Accept my interpretation.


Please remember you are the one that said "...price of rejection people will pay..." which is a cost. NOT FREE. CONDITIONAL. See easy.

I know it is easy but I don't think you will be able to understand being a sheeple.

I've made my choice, me and my household will serve the LORD our God. it's you that has to make a choice of whether you will reject Christ or not. Your interpretation is invalid, you're trying to claim my statement. Have you had trouble from your youth about understanding the simple things.

[pocaracas]

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I was raised in church and became a Christian as a teenager, much later than most at my church. By the time I graduated from high school I left church and found the world and lived as the world for years. Returned to church and found a true relationship with Christ. This is the short of it, would take to long to write the details as they are many.

---

Thus confirming the start of my description of you:

You get the info from other people that there is a divine entity which is invisible, untouchable and, basically, has no measurable physical interaction with our world, but it's out there, somewhere.

Of coarse, how do you learn, are you completely self taught, that would require no books, dvd, computer and ect. Being introduced to things and being pushed into things are two very different experiences. My parents nor anyone else pushed me into Christianity, I was allowed to search and sort things out for myself, wise parents are a blessing.

(I fixed some quote tags here... I hope I got them ok)
Of course that I'd expect you to learn things from other people.
Therein lies the whole problem.
Where you accepted the information provided to you and, perhaps subconsciously, got your confirmation of those things, I will never accept that information, on the basis that I am fully aware that my brain can play tricks on me in order to obtain said confirmation where there is none!

In other words, I think your brain tricked you into believing the way you do.
Not only you, but all other religious person, all of them stemming from some information they got from other people.

To me, this explains the worldwide religion phenomenon much more satisfyingly than there is some deity that has been consecutively misunderstood by the people of Earth.

What comes next?...
Define your deity for me, please.
Characterize how it interacts with our world, what sort of proof do you have for its existence that makes you stand by such existence so avidly.

What comes next, interesting question, wish I knew, God has something for me but at this moment I have no idea what that will be.
A better question would be what now, I will continue to help people with drug and alcohol problems as God sends them to me, most unfortunately do not listen and continue in lives that haunt even an ex-druggie like me. I will continue to study scripture and stay in prayer, in this I will be given more knowledge about who God is. I always look in anticipation for such wonderful revelation whether it comes from scripture, life or however God chooses to teach me. This interaction with God is just part of our relationship, many things happen in my life that I know is the work of God. God works in this world in many ways with billions of people, what I see is mostly from those closes to me.

That wasn't the next I was going for.... next in the text you dismissed as my Wednesday burnout.... I'm now on Friday euphoria, so things should be clear to me.... a bit too clear, maybe.

Define God, can't you find a harder question to ask, God is as He describes himself spirit, the only thing I can tell you about Him being spirit is He is not physical and thus not bound by the laws of this universe. God is love, truth, kindhearted, eternal, patient, long suffering, forgiving, all knowing, all powerful, generous, provider, loving guide, fortress against evil, promise keeper, solid foundation, comforter, shoulder to cry on, blesses and a blessing, sovereign, source of knowledge and wisdom, teacher, fountain to quench thirst, faithful, breath of life, just judge, redeemer, creator, my joy, freedom, savior, light and on and on I could go. Now these things are not what God is, they are who He is, He is our standard and no one can live up to this standard, that's why he is savior.

Ah, so many qualifiers that you attribute to that deity... amazing!
Now, let's look at my Wednesday rant:

You get the info from other people that there is a divine entity which is invisible, untouchable and, basically, has no measurable physical interaction with our world, but it's out there, somewhere. Those other people also tell you that this entity does interact with our world through people's emotions, feelings and whatnot...

I'd say I got it pretty accurately, in the "whatnot" detail

Maybe I wasn't as burned out as you thought....

And then, connecting with what I said in this post:

You take this information about this entity, accept it as trustworthy and proceed to confirm this information with a book the same people present to you.

Your mind then accepts the existence of the entity as real and proceeds to interpret some of your "emotions, feelings and whatnot" as an interaction of this entity within you.

I admit I didn't mention the subconscious part in that post... that may have thrown you off....

Onward.... why are you here, on this forum?

[Waratah]

I've made my choice, me and my household will serve the LORD our God. it's you that has to make a choice of whether you will reject Christ or not. Your interpretation is invalid, you're trying to claim my statement. Have you had trouble from your youth about understanding the simple things.

Sounds like the rest of the household does not have free will, YOU have made the choice for the household. Are you a control freak?

[downbeatplumb]

Godschild is an ex-druggie! suddenly his need for a crutch becomes clear.
Isn't it odd that the most fervent believers are the ones who did the most shit in the past!
You come across it time and time again.

I never did any of "that stuff".