In the beginning...

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Which is nothing if not a fantastic argument against the assertion that God created all real things through his 'love'.

Depends on your understanding of love. Certainly, the emotional affections of human beings does not create directly. Human love does however reflect the nature of Divine Love. While this idea has been expressed in various ways, I think of it as this: a disposition to instantiate and unify. Not to dismiss the role of entropy in the Divine Order, but it does seem that life, contrary to being a random occurence also reflects this inherent ability of the physical world to self-organize.

No such thing. The total system in which some things "self organize" as you say always exhibits a net increase in entropy. Any local increase in order results in system wide greater decrease in order than if no "self organization" had occurred.

In practice earth plus sun plus life has a greater increase in entropy than earth plus sun without life.

[Tex]

I was notating where the blanks would be. Anyway:

God created all real things from his love, which is only possible through omnipotence.

Who told you that and why did you believe them?

That is a very simple question. Do you have an answer?

That is a very simple, 2 part question, but let me give you a more detailed answer.

When a child, my dad told me that.
When an adolescent, my pastor told me that.
When a high schooler, I told me that.
Now, God has been telling me that all along.

I believed my father because he desires to cultivate excellence in me.
I believed my pastor because he desired the excellent itself.
I believed myself because I understood many sound logical conclusions.
Now I believe God because I'm very slowly becoming more humble.

Slowly. It needs to be faster. Then again, maybe I need some patience too...

[The Reality Salesman01]

Who told you that and why did you believe them?

That is a very simple question. Do you have an answer?

That is a very simple, 2 part question, but let me give you a more detailed answer.

When a child, my dad told me that.
When an adolescent, my pastor told me that.
When a high schooler, I told me that.
Now, God has been telling me that all along.

I believed my father because he desires to cultivate excellence in me.
I believed my pastor because he desired the excellent itself.
I believed myself because I understood many sound logical conclusions.
Now I believe God because I'm very slowly becoming more humble.

Slowly. It needs to be faster. Then again, maybe I need some patience too...

You really need to read this...http://home.sylvangate.com/blogs/index.php?itemid=11


It illustrates perfectly what you think you know and why you continue it. I was there once and can recognize it in you.

[Minimalist]

It says God created X and Y It does not say from nothing X and Y were manifested.

Um, it also does not say that x and y were created from "something." It is silent on the issue.

Apparently, the primitive goat herder who thought up this particular bit of heavenly horseshit did not let his imagination wander far enough. Obviously, he did not think it important.

In the begining there was only chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, darkness. Then somehow Love was born bringing a start of order. From Love came Light and Day. Once there was Light and Day, Gaea, the earth appeared.

Then Erebus slept with Night, who gave birth to Ether, the heavenly light, and to Day the earthly light. Then Night alone produced Doom, Fate, Death, Sleep, Dreams, Nemesis, and others that come to man out of darkness.

Meanwhile Gaea alone gave birth to Uranus, the heavens. Uranus became Gaea's mate covering her on all sides. Together they produced the three Cyclopes, the three Hecatoncheires, and twelve Titans.

--Greek

A very long time ago there was nothing but water. In the east Hurúing Wuhti[2], the deity of all hard substances, lived in the ocean. Her house was a kiva like the kivas of the Hopi of today. To the ladder leading into the kiva were usually tied a skin of a gray fox and one of a yellow fox. Another Hurúing Wuhti lived in the ocean in the west in a similar kiva, but to her ladder was attached a turtle-shell rattle.

--Hopi

In the beginning there was only water, a chaos of churning, bubbling water, this the Egyptians called Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began.
- Then the sun god Ra emerged out of primeval chaos, he came out of a blue giant lotus flower that appeared on the surface of the water.
- Ra gave light to the universe

--Egyptian

The world was created by Viracocha near Lake Titicaca. After the great deluge or the receding of chaotic floodwaters Viracocha descended to earth and created plants, animals and men to the empty land; he built the city of Tiahuanaco and appointed 4 world rulers of whom Manco Capak became the superior of the Ursa Major world, i.e. the north horizon.

--Inca

Oddly, they really aren't any stupider than the yahweh shit. Just examples of primitives trying to explain their world. It really is well past time that humanity consign these curiosities to the dustbin of history.

[Tonus]

Meanwhile Gaea alone gave birth to Uranus, the heavens.

Huh... so the heavens were pulled our of Uranus. Who didn't see that coming?

[Tex]

That is a very simple, 2 part question, but let me give you a more detailed answer.

When a child, my dad told me that.
When an adolescent, my pastor told me that.
When a high schooler, I told me that.
Now, God has been telling me that all along.

I believed my father because he desires to cultivate excellence in me.
I believed my pastor because he desired the excellent itself.
I believed myself because I understood many sound logical conclusions.
Now I believe God because I'm very slowly becoming more humble.

Slowly. It needs to be faster. Then again, maybe I need some patience too...

You really need to read this...http://home.sylvangate.com/blogs/index.php?itemid=11


It illustrates perfectly what you think you know and why you continue it. I was there once and can recognize it in you.

This explains how presuppositions restrict our ability to know, but it does not explain where the idea came from in the first place. I completely support the idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but this actually works both ways. The theist and non-theist both rely upon presuppositions. For the large majority of the populous, it is excruciatingly difficult to separate presuppositions in the argument/debate, largely because of the lack of training. However, it can be done, which is why there is possibility for debate. If Christians alone cannot, there shouldn't ever be a debate. If Atheists alone cannot, there shouldn't ever be a debate. I'd like to believe that we're all people and have the potential to remove presuppositions from discussions, thereby changing beliefs.

[Ryantology]

If you take presupposition out of the Christian position, what are you left with? The entire process of 'knowing' God begins and ends with it. The A/S/K process is just a long series of presuppositions. Nothing about religious faith ever progresses past that point.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Did you follow the link and read the article?

[Tex]

Yes. The guy says Christians believe the bible is inspired because its just so rooted in the brain. I called this "presuppositions" and it is what he actually makes his argument against. He has the standard evangelical definition of faith as "blind trust". This teaching wrong. If you learn, your faith grows. Never should it be encouraged to "to put aside the experience and intellect supposedly given to us by God – and to blindly 'just believe.'" That is garbage from lazy pastors with no education. He then claims those same presuppositions make us "condemn" ourselves, which I'll concede to.

I think his conclusion "the presuppositions are wrong" is wrong. Instead, I think everyone has presuppositions, including atheists. To evaluate independently of presuppositions is a great skill that allows for more truth. This "more truth" over time becomes another presupposition. The knowledge being a presupposition doesn't make it false, it's just the principles by which the brain operates. My diagram would look exactly like his, but with Christianity on the outside and he's walling himself into atheism. By limiting his scope of knowledge, he's making himself less free, not more.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

Who told you that and why did you believe them?

That is a very simple question. Do you have an answer?

That is a very simple, 2 part question, but let me give you a more detailed answer.

When a child, my dad told me that.
When an adolescent, my pastor told me that.
When a high schooler, I told me that.
Now, God has been telling me that all along.

I believed my father because he desires to cultivate excellence in me.
I believed my pastor because he desired the excellent itself.
I believed myself because I understood many sound logical conclusions.
Now I believe God because I'm very slowly becoming more humble.

Slowly. It needs to be faster. Then again, maybe I need some patience too...

And the next question. Who told told your father and pastor and why did they believe the people who told them?

If you want it faster I keep asking those questions until we arrive at a point where you do not know OR the people in question did not know.

Also let me ask exactly what belief has to do with "excellence" but first define excellence as you are using it as I am unaware of any definition which could possibly apply. Believing in what you are told is merely believing. It does not do a thing for you.

As to logical conclusions, they cannot be made without evidenciary premises. But if you think otherwise, run me through your logical process.

---

This explains how presuppositions restrict our ability to know, but it does not explain where the idea came from in the first place.

Which is where I was headed hoping he would see it for himself. Ultimately the Christian BELIEF is that the first people believed because they were told it by possibly known persons (apostles) of unknown character and unknown motivation and unknown powers of observation and reasoning. IOW something no one would accept in any other matter.

I completely support the idea that the unexamined life is not worth living, but this actually works both ways. The theist and non-theist both rely upon presuppositions. For the large majority of the populous, it is excruciatingly difficult to separate presuppositions in the argument/debate, largely because of the lack of training. However, it can be done, which is why there is possibility for debate. If Christians alone cannot, there shouldn't ever be a debate. If Atheists alone cannot, there shouldn't ever be a debate. I'd like to believe that we're all people and have the potential to remove presuppositions from discussions, thereby changing beliefs.

Of course everyone has to make assumptions but if questioned one has to confirm or abandon them and "don't know" is a perfectly legitimate answer. NEVER is the original assumption true until shown false. The original assumption is false until shown true.