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Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
#21
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
I want to understand why you think that just because science has currently recognized where mystical feelings have come from (in the brain), but not yet WHY the brain would cause such a thing to occur, that means to you that there needs to be some sort of external agent. Or perhaps not 'needs' but simply 'is'.

There are many things science hasn't found yet. But 100 years ago, there were many more, and science eventually found answers for them. None of them involved divinity. I want to know, essentially, why you fill your gaps with god instead of understanding that eventually - perhaps after your death, but eventually - these questions will get answered.
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#22
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
(April 19, 2013 at 2:15 pm)Love Wrote: Hello,

This is the new thread (from HERE). I will go ahead and answer all of the questions that were asked of me.

Cheers.

(April 19, 2013 at 9:09 am)RosaRubicondior Wrote: As an Atheist, how did you know which god to ascribe causality to and how did you eliminate all possible natural explanations for your 'experiences', please?

What specific piece of evidence convinced you a priori that your chosen god actually existed so you could justify including it in the explanation, please?

Very good questions. When I was an atheist, I attributed the totality of mystical experience (for everybody) to the dopamine system in the brain. There is scientific evidence in the field of cognitive neuroscience that suggests mystical experience has correlates in this particular part of the brain (as part of the monoamine system). I am still very keen on the sciences such as physics, chemistry and biology (and all of the subdisciplines), but I now have a different view about mystical experience. Although I do not disagree with the neural correlations associated with mystical experience, I think extreme reductionism of this nature actually undermines the mystical experience itself. I now view this from the perspective of Aristotle: "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” That is, the experience is vastly more important than the biological mechanism from which it derives. We postulate that mystical experience does have a material cause, but this does not explain why the experience exists in the first place, hence my reason for attributing it to an external agency.

As for applying my experiences to the God of Christ. I would like to make it clear that I did not experience a momentary sacred vision in an instant, it was a gradual process and I found myself feeling beckoned by the history of Christianity and the impact Jesus has had on history and culture; I cannot explain why I felt those desires to read about Christianity and Jesus. There is also something deep inside my consciousness about Christianity that feels "right" and "true" at the same time, which is significant to me. In essence, it was a gradual process after that horrific experience on December 24th 2012.

Cheers.

Did... Did you just... use... Aristotle????????

We're now best friends forever.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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#23
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
I'm re-posting the questions I had for you (Love) from your intro thread so you don't have to go root around looking for them. No big hurry in getting to them, I understand that you're heavily outnumbered, and fielding questions and comments from everyone else. Smile

Quote:1) What is the foundation or basis for progressive Christianity? The sacerdotal churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Nestorian) appeal to Church tradition and apostolic succession. Fundies claim to base their beliefs on an infallible Bible (while ignoring pretty much everything Jesus is portrayed saying about money). Progressive Christians seem to be...kinda free-floating. Spong is (as far as I can tell from his writings) an atheist-of-the-cloth. He does not believe in any theistic deity, a resurrection of Jesus (except in the most metaphorical of terms), or any of the doctrines that have defined Christianity for most of its history (e.g. the Creeds, etc.). It just seems like there's no "there" there, in the sense of a "Christianity" that differs from "atheist humanism, using cultural Christian language."

2) Why continue to cart the Bible around and be weighted down with all of its baggage (genocides, barbaric patriarchal "morality," teachings of exclusivity, Hell, etc., claims of miracles and "history" that never happened, and so forth) in order to salvage a relative handful of moral teachings you agree with, when you could find much richer bodies of moral teaching in, for example, the writings of Marcus Aurelius or the Buddha?

3) On what basis can you pick out those "nice" parts and treat them as (at least somewhat) "divinely inspired" or otherwise valid and applicable, while tossing the rest overboard?

4) Are there any truth-claims that actually differentiate your kind of Christianity from atheism? E.g., "God exists and does/says [insert deeds/words here], so that his/her/its existence is not indistinguishable from a godless Universe."
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#24
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
Can I bully you, here? Tongue

You're an atheist for years... all of a sudden, you have some experience, non-material experience, and jump the gun to believing it was of divine origin....
I wish to ask you what you have already outlined and should have asked yourself:
(April 19, 2013 at 4:09 pm)Love Wrote: You are obviously endeavouring to conceptualise my subjective experience, which is obviously very difficult for anybody. This is what I find with rationalism and reason; I very much doubt that there could ever be anything that would ever convince you that God is exists, as I am sure you would apply skeptical analysis such as: is this an hallucination derived from neural biochemistry? Or: how can I be sure it is god?

If you were an atheist, what happened to this process from your point of view?

You then proceed to say that
(April 19, 2013 at 4:20 pm)Love Wrote: I also suffer from severe mental illess, which is a very severe form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). I also suspect that I have a mild form of Asperger's Syndrome

Putting 2 and 2 together, I see a mentally challenged person who fails to apply critical thinking to his/her own mental experiences... notice how I use "mental" too often in this post.

TLDR: Your mental problem may have triggered your experience, ever think of that?
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#25
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
(April 19, 2013 at 4:37 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I want to understand why you think that just because science has currently recognized where mystical feelings have come from (in the brain), but not yet WHY the brain would cause such a thing to occur, that means to you that there needs to be some sort of external agent. Or perhaps not 'needs' but simply 'is'.

If you are talking to me the where of the feeling simply removes it from the supernatural. It is not even an idea. As to why it exists, there are lots of areas of the brain with their own whys.

If I were guessing, trying to get a research grant, I would propose scanning children to see if the region is more active. If so I would follow up comparing its activity with obedience to parents.

We all once lived in a land of giants from whom all rewards, punishments and daily sustenance derived and did all manner of incomprehensible things, who knew everything. In other words, we all once lived in a land of gods.

It might explain why not only gods but kings have a successful motif of being parents or super-parents. Being cherished of a god is what children get from parents.

I suggest this is a region is one that will had the intelligent designer had a decent plan would cease to function around age 15 or so when it is no longer useful.

Quote:There are many things science hasn't found yet. But 100 years ago, there were many more, and science eventually found answers for them. None of them involved divinity. I want to know, essentially, why you fill your gaps with god instead of understanding that eventually - perhaps after your death, but eventually - these questions will get answered.

That cannot be directed to me. But let me comment that believers are using god to explain things we did not even known we did not know a century ago.
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#26
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
Two good ones - I had some questions about
(April 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Love Wrote: However, I believe that sensory experience of each human being is entirely subjective and that we need to transcend beyond our sensory system in order to experience what I call God.
Have you had such an "experience"..and further, how would one know that they had had such an "experience" removed from the apparatus they use to...well...."experience"....?

Quote:Jesus' resurrection is scientifically impossible, therefore, it must be logically false. This is why rationalists (with no prior knowledge of philosophy or history) annoy me.
Would knowledge of history or philosophy have the power to make the resurrection narrative less absurd? I doubt that very much.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#27
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
None of those questions were directed at you, Nony, being that this is Love's thread.
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#28
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
Thinking In the field of work that I am at we see children that "hear voices" (command hallucinations) every once in a while. When asked about these voices they believe that they are real. "You don't get it. It's not my imagination. They are there and they tell me to do things. They are scary," etc. etc. To some, the voices are so real that they have to practice altering the experiences as they go on with their daily lives. Meds help them have a better quality of life and fade those voices out. Suppose one of these kids told me it was an evil force of some sort (they will say that). It doesn't make it true just because I can't explain why it happens. It just means the kid needs her meds and she needs my help. It takes skill and discipline to learn how to recognize the signals and "play the system", your own system.

Perhaps your experiences have an explanation and you would get it if you spoke about it to your psychiatrist. Perhaps it doesn't go that far. Perhaps you just really want something and your emotions have taken you to places that seem supernatural. I know. I thought I had experiences, but now I realize I really wanted to see blue where it was green and my mind tricked me to thinking it was there. Just don't answer "but I know for sure" if you won't explain what makes your case any different than the one of these kids.

"I have this feeling that I can't explain..."
"Something drives me to believe..."
"Something inside me that I can't explain..."

Not good answers. Those are emotional. They mean nothing more than, "I don't know what this is, but it tastes good even with its fins." (meaning it's fishy).
Pointing around: "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, fuck you, I'm out!"
Half Baked

"Let the atheists come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heathens belongs to people like these." -Saint Bacon
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#29
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
(April 19, 2013 at 2:15 pm)Love Wrote: I am still very keen on the sciences such as physics, chemistry and biology (and all of the subdisciplines), but I now have a different view about mystical experience. Although I do not disagree with the neural correlations associated with mystical experience, I think extreme reductionism of this nature actually undermines the mystical experience itself. I now view this from the perspective of Aristotle: "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” That is, the experience is vastly more important than the biological mechanism from which it derives.

Which is a very obvious and very glaring misunderstanding of the idea of Emergence. You are grasping at straws already and I haven't even gotten to the meat of your post, yet.

Quote:We postulate that mystical experience does have a material cause, but this does not explain why the experience exists in the first place, hence my reason for attributing it to an external agency.

There is no actual "why" in regards to the universe in general. "Why" is a question posed by people who feel the need to seek a reason for everything. "Why" has never led to any satisfactory answers, only half-answers, wild speculation, and inevitable delusion, as you have proven. Whereas "how" has led to explanation, observation, and advancement. Pursuit of "how" ultimately answers "why" in the process (and always with the application of Ockham's razor, the simplest answer being the best) but pursuit of "why" leads nowhere but self-assertion, which ultimately goes nowhere but circles.

Quote:As for applying my experiences to the God of Christ. I would like to make it clear that I did not experience a momentary sacred vision in an instant,

And how are you so sure such a thing ever happens to begin with, and isn't just self-assertion?

Quote: it was a gradual process and I found myself feeling beckoned by the history of Christianity and the impact Jesus has had on history and culture;
What, you mean the centuries of bloodshed, oppression, tyranny, and corruption, the division of nations, the deaths of millions, the torture and execution of those who dared question it, the censorship of attempts to understand the universe, the continued effort to cockblock every attempt to explain how things work, the sectarian violence that was only two decades ago raging throughout Ireland, the genocides in Africa at the hands of "Christian Warlords" who use child-soldiers, the "ethnic cleansing" in Serbia about 15 years ago (Yeah, Christianity's history of bloodlust has NOT abated with time, believe history), the forced ignorance of its dogma that held us back a full fucking millenium? THAT beckoned you? Or were you talking about the pitiful offerings of "good" that Christianity has done, like...uh...give people self-deluded explanations for themselves, despite the fact anyone can be good or feel good about themselves without the religious bullshit?? Suddenly I have this overwhelming need to ensure that you stay far away from any kind of explosive materials or ballistic weapons.

Quote:I cannot explain why I felt those desires to read about Christianity and Jesus.

You can not? As in, you are completely and totally at a loss? Or, can not as in you never bothered to question it for more than five seconds so therefore goddidit? I can explain it for you, having been down that road but having taken a hard right at the offramp on the highway to ignorance: It's the fear of the unknown. You NEED to have a "why," so you chase that instead of the "how," because the "how" wasn't providing the answers quickly enough, but with the "why," well, you can make up or subscribe to whatever you want and call it truth "just because," and there's no demand for evidence for you, easing the burden on your own conscience and giving yourself over to superstition. That's all this is.

Quote:There is also something deep inside my consciousness about Christianity that feels "right" and "true" at the same time, which is significant to me. In essence, it was a gradual process after that horrific experience on December 24th 2012.

Cheers.

I'm going to ignore your "born again" story because I tire of those and I've been down the same road and never felt the need for it (because I'm not a complete pussy), and address your thing about Christianity "feeling right and true." So how then do you square the circle about those who feel that paganism is "right" and "true," or satanism, or shiite islam or sunni islam or judaism? Because they all think they're right, and they feel it "deep inside their consciousness" and yet each religion essentially states that the other is wrong. They all feel the same way, yet they all say the other is wrong. You don't see a problem with that? You have no desire to step back and analyze the "why" suddenly? "Why" is that? You did before. But suddenly now that you're nice and comfy, you don't want to investigate anymore? Why do you suppose that is?

Well, examining the "how" actually provides a clear-cut answer: You had a really traumatic experience and you suddenly need answers regardless of whether or not they actually have any basis in logic. You convolute the answers you present yourself so that it turns into a nice, neat little circle that provides just enough "personal evidence" to satisfy you, without ever having to look deeper into it. That is how it happened, and in knowing this, we have the "why." The "why" is "because you need it to." Don't try to pretend like this is some logical conclusion you came to, because it insults everyone who actually pursues the truth of "how;" you came to it out of fear and like a coward you clung to the nearest object of safety rather than facing down the experience, just like every other religious twink out there who comes to this "born again" shit after a really bad experience.

That's all you are. And having just read your other thread, you're not just a coward, you're an intellectual coward. The universe is a big scary place and like an infant hearing its first thunderclap you start screaming and wailing in horror because you realize you won't know everything about the universe even if you have all the time in the universe itself. So rather than trying to seek the complex truth you go for the simplest explanation possible, which is hilariously ironic and contradictory given you admitted your little "experience" could be due to "the extremely simplistic explanation of psychosis."

Coward. Coward, coward, coward. That is what I think of you. Do not mistake this is as hostility. It's just contempt. You're pathetic and absolutely pitiful, like a whimpering toddler beholding a thunderstorm for the first time, only you've beheld the thunderstorm many times and yet now suddenly you're scared of it for no real reason whatsoever. You're just a sad, spineless individual, that's all you are.

(April 19, 2013 at 5:05 pm)Tex Wrote: Did... Did you just... use... Aristotle????????

We're now best friends forever.

He used Aristotle in the same way a pretentious high schooler tries to use Dante as evidence of their superiority; without any knowledge whatsoever of what was being said.

But you're a fellow Christian, I'm sure the idea of using pre-Jesus philosophers fits right in with your belief syst-

Quote:Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,”

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

ad near fucking infinitum...

Ooohh...yeah...that's right, the bible basically states that philosophers and the wisdom of men are irrelevant, useless, hollow, and not to be used or trusted...

You fucking cherry pickers, the both of you, no wonder you wanna be his best friend, you wanna skip down the biblical cherry orchard hand in hand and pick the biggest, fattest, most useful cherries you can together. Fuck, you Christians are all a bunch of self-contradicting dumbasses. And then you all wonder why atheists are so hostile. It's cuz we are all violently allergic to bullshit and you keep spewing it around.
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#30
RE: Atheism, Theism, Science & Philosophy
(April 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm)Love Wrote: I also subscribe to empiricism in several areas, such as my love for the scientific method. I do, however, believe empircism has limits in terms of its scope of application. As you're aware, empricism posits that true knowledge is experienced via the senses. However, I believe that sensory experience of each human being is entirely subjective and that we need to transcend beyond our sensory system in order to experience what I call God.

Everything is experienced via the senses. Like it or not, you exist in a body where the only lens you have with which to experience the world is your sensory organs. Can you name a single aspect of existence that you experience without using your senses?

Saying empiricism is limited because the senses are subjective is just targeted solipsism; you don't go around distrusting every other aspect of your life because your senses are subjective, after all.

Quote:I postulate that almost all atheists are rationalists, and some of them often use the word "rational" without actually having the slightlest idea about the philosophy behind it or its origins. Because Richard Dawkins says rationalism leads to truth, the case is closed. Rationalists often believe that they can instantly and simplistically dismiss a proposition without engaging in any real thought on the matter. A good example of a rationalist: Jesus' resurrection is scientifically impossible, therefore, it must be logically false. This is why rationalists (with no prior knowledge of philosophy or history) annoy me.

Isn't the magic answer more simplistic and credulous, though? We know that resurrection is impossible, we've never once seen it occur in all our recorded history; that is thinking about the matter. If something is entirely out of our sphere of experience- despite the definite willingness people would have to test this claim that resurrection is possible, so it's not for lack of trying- then it's safe to say that it's impossible. What you're asking us to do is make an exception for the single example you like; this is hardly rational.

Not to mention, there are other reasons to doubt the resurrection of Jesus, like the fact that there's no contemporary historical records that even show that he existed.

Quote:We postulate that mystical experience does have a material cause, but this does not explain why the experience exists in the first place, hence my reason for attributing it to an external agency.

When you don't know the answer for something, then "I don't know," is the answer. You're not justified in just sticking something magic in the gap, because you've got as little evidence for that as you do for a material explanation. It demands further investigation, not just the most comfortable answer that comes to mind at the time.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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