Why do we need morals?

[Tiberius]

@Rhythm:

Not sure if the post was addressed to me, but I disagree with the concept of morality as a teaching aid. If someone asks "Why is stealing wrong?", and I reply "because it's immoral", all I've done is stated a tautology (stealing is wrong because it's wrong). This is why I see morality as descriptive; it is logic that can be used to define morality. There are plenty of logical arguments for why stealing is immoral; those are more convincing that simply stating it a priori.

[The Grand Nudger]

It wasn't..however.

"because it's immoral" -OR- you could explain what makes it immoral. No shortage of ways to describe that, especially to a child. The idea of morality is descriptive, agreed. We use that descriptive concept as the basis to then prescribe behavioral goals. You won't actually be able to teach your child that "stealing is bad" without imparting morality upon them. What else should I call that, other than a teaching aide?

"Here's the target person. Heres why we're shooting for this target person. Here's how you can accomplish this goal." That, to me, I suppose, is the entirety of morality. We could have intentionally set the target, or it may have arisen as a function of our biology (and it looks like we've done both).

Back to the person I was responding to : All of the above describes why I feel that it's useful. I suspect that you make great use of it yourself, to be honest - even if you don't consider it (and that's kind of the amusing bit - it works so well that we take it for granted..lol).

[dazzn]

Labelling things as "moral" or "immoral" at a given time is inane. You tell me and everybody why we need this notion of "morality"?

Erm, perhaps you should re-read my post. I kinda made that point.

The only "morality" that matters to me is my own. If someone comes up to me and says "gay marriage is immoral", I'll say, "you go ahead and believe that; I don't think it is".

Morality undermines freedom. Who is "society" to undermine human/personal freedom?

[The Grand Nudger]

Hardly. I can only assume that you mean that it undermines a sort of tyranny that you would -call- freedom. From the comfort of your morality laden chair - of course.

The sort of "freedom" I might enjoy if stealing from me or stabbing me wasn't "wrong". The sort of freedom that you might enjoy if stealing from you or stabbing you wasn't "wrong".

[dazzn]

Once one is grown, he has the means to do and act as he pleases.

[ideologue08]

It wasn't..however.

"because it's immoral" -OR- you could explain what makes it immoral. No shortage of ways to describe that, especially to a child. The idea of morality is descriptive, agreed. We use that descriptive concept as the basis to then prescribe behavioral goals. You won't actually be able to teach your child that "stealing is bad" without imparting morality upon them. What else should I call that, other than a teaching aide?

"Here's the target person. Heres why we're shooting for this target person. Here's how you can accomplish this goal." That, to me, I suppose, is the entirety of morality. We could have intentionally set the target, or it may have arisen as a function of our biology (and it looks like we've done both).

Back to the person I was responding to : All of the above describes why I feel that it's useful. I suspect that you make great use of it yourself, to be honest - even if you don't consider it (and that's kind of the amusing bit - it works so well that we take it for granted..lol).

So, why do you think stealing is wrong? I don't think you gave a reason, I could be wrong though.

[The Grand Nudger]

Once one is grown, he has the means to do and act as he pleases.

LOL, no, "he" doesn't. You don't even have the means to lift your arm above the level of your shoulder if someone else doesn't want you to. It's a pleasant fiction though, isn't it?


@Reasons that stealing is wrong.

One could imagine many, but I'm personally very partial to the notion that I do not wish to have my things stolen, and that I do not have any solid ground to compel another to do (or not do) what I would not do (or do) myself. Or, if you prefer, we could go the utilitarian route and say that theft makes us both immediately unhappy, and in the long term makes our society unstable, and should therefore be curtailed.

We could do this all day though couldn't we? Give reasons why stealing is "wrong". I use the former for now (since my children are very young...but I'll likely mention the latter sometime -when they're older and hopefully no longer require reinforcement - more along the lines of elaboration and exploration).

[ideologue08]

Once one is grown, he has the means to do and act as he pleases.

LOL, no, "he" doesn't. You don't even have the means to lift your arm above the level of your shoulder if someone else doesn't want you to. It's a pleasant fiction though, isn't it?


@Reasons that stealing is wrong.

One could imagine many, but I'm personally very partial to the notion that I do not wish to have my things stolen, and that I do not have any solid ground to compel another to do (or not do) what I would not do (or do) myself. Or, if you prefer, we could go the utilitarian route and say that theft makes us both immediately unhappy, and in the long term makes our society unstable, and should therefore be curtailed.

We could do this all day though couldn't we? Give reasons why stealing is "wrong". I use the former for now (since my children are very young...but I'll likely mention the latter sometime -when they're older and hopefully no longer require reinforcement - more along the lines of elaboration and exploration).

Neither of those two reasons are adequate though, they do not sufficiently explain why stealing is wrong, it's not very convincing at all.

[Angrboda]

I'll simply note that you've moved from why we need morals to why certain things are moral or immoral. It is not at all obvious that proving the latter is required in order to demonstrate the former. If you feel otherwise, make a case.

[The Grand Nudger]

Neither of those two reasons are adequate though, they do not sufficiently explain why stealing is wrong, it's not very convincing at all.

Adequate to whom? You? You're certainly free to disagree. Certainly convincing enough for me. If stealing is okay then I don't get to bitch when my things are stolen. Same goes for my kids. If you don;t want your things stolen then I'd say that's a pretty compelling explanation as to why it's wrong".

Did you expect me to provide you with an "objective" morality? I've never seen one. Nevertheless, they're adequate to a great many of us, and as a person that does not require morality to be objective and uniformly true for every conceivable person and every conceivable scenario - this doesn't bother me much.

Why do you think that stealing is wrong (if you think that stealing is wrong)?

@Apo, not sure if that was for me, I'm guessing not..since I did mention why we needed them, in my estimation. Just in case, post 12.