Argument from evil, restated

[Praetorian]

This is so exhausting to read. At every turn, we make a valid argument, and at every turn, a counter argument is made that contradicts some principal of being omnimax.

All the while, I might add, we all know that the Hebrews were exposed to Zoroastrianism while they were in captivity. We know that's where they got the idea of an entirely good god. Is it really so hard to ask yourselves if you could be wrong?

[Sal]

Not to mention that a desire/want explicits a lack of the object of desire/want.

[The Grand Nudger]

This is so exhausting to read. At every turn, we make a valid argument, and at every turn, a counter argument is made that contradicts some principal of being omnimax.

What else would you expect? The people we're talking to at least know enough to realize that they can't -argue- from omnimax....but that does not mean that their cultural experience and conception of a god is complete without omnimax. They simply don't wish to (or do not have the ability to) argue for it....but they would still like to retain it. So their god is not omnibenevolent..when asked directly - they simply cannot (or will not) identify any istance in which it has not been benevolent. Their god is not omnipotent, they simply cannot (or will not) suggest something that their god cannot do. Their god is not omniprescient, they simply cannot ( or will not) suggest something that their god may not know.

They like the cake, and they like eating it, too, and fuck anyone who mentions that both may not be tenable.........

So instead of the omnimax god, we get treated to an endless parade of gods who are not omnipotent - just more powerful than ourselves. Gods who are not omni-benevolent, just more benevolent than ourselves. Gods who are not omni-prescient, just more knowledgeable than ourselves. To which I say "So fucking what?", there are human beings who are able to do more than me, who know more than me, and who are more benevolent than me - but I don't see our resident theists bowing the fucking knee to any of these people.........

Its a giant farce - and forgive me for being cynical..but I think they know it.

[Neo-Scholastic]

...trying to mix god's mercy and grace into his justice. The resulting system does of course seem ludicrous, as justice is deserved, while mercy and grace are undeserved.

As I understand Justice and Mercy are intertwined and distinct from Grace. Justice is to punish the wrong-doer in accordance with law. Mercy is taking into mitigating circumstances. For example, suppose the law says the punishment for murder is death. But the judge recognizes that, while the defendant is guilty, he is also mentally challenged. Thus the wise judge tempers the sentence and shows mercy on the the defendant.

[The Grand Nudger]

The wrong-doer? Like people who weave polyblend fabric or peopke who engage in "witchcraft"? What a joke.

[Neo-Scholastic]

This is so exhausting to read. At every turn, we make a valid argument, and at every turn, a counter argument is made that contradicts some principal of being omnimax.

An argument is not valid if the premises are wrong. Don't blame us because we do not accept your straw man version of god. As far as that goes, I'm pretty certain that I don't know everything about God, but that does not negate my belief that He is more worthy of worship then the alternatives, regardless of whether those alternatives are a pantheon, the abstract Ground of Being, Scientism, Materialism, or nihilism

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that you'll have to demonstrate that anything at all is worthy of worship...before you make such a statement Chad. Until then it looks like you're just shopping around for something to worship.

[Praetorian]

I sympathize to some extent with Chad's argument that there's nothing better in that it really sucks that there's nothing better. It sucks that we're going to die. It sucks that when someone gets brain damage, part of them goes away and never comes back. It would be fantastic if there were a loving God watching out for me.

...but when you observe the world, none of comforting claims that religion makes could possibly be true. That's no happy truth, but I'd rather face the truth than gloss it over with unjustifiable belief.

As to whoever it was that said we're making a straw god argument, I'd very much like you to point out where.

[Godscreated]

How do you know I did not fix-up the truck and sell it to him, knowing he was a very bad driver who could possibly run through my garden. Does this mean I should forego my garden, I hardly think so. I should do just as God did, have a judgement brought upon the driver and then fix what he destroyed.

Missed the point.

You didn't create the driver with the propensity to destroy something you created. You also didn't create the driver with that propensity and simultaneously create an eternal punishment for that propensity using the same rules.

Did not have to create him, I knew the possibility he could run through the garden and when he did I took the appropriate actions, just as God did. The garden is back as it was because I took the action to fix it, the driver has received his punishment.

What I explained above destroys the box you want to put me in. By the way God created Lucifer, it was Lucifer who made himself into Satan.

Copout.

Your god created lucifer with the foreknowledge he would become satan (using the idea that it's omni-faceted).

You haven't destroyed your box, you've just imagined it away, which is entirely expected

Foreknowledge has nothing to do with God being responsible for Lucifer's fall, Lucifer had a choice to make and he made the wrong one. Do you think that that was the only decision he could have made, how many different paths could he have traveled, do you think that God did not see those. Yes He did and thus gave Lucifer the chance to do what was right.

There is no difference between a desire and a want, nether are absolute for your personal survival. Gees.

Sorry, I misread thinking you'd written desire and want Implying no synonymous link.

But again, I know this will just go entirely over your head, but an omni-faceted god is by definition perfect, it would want/need/desire for nothing. The idea that a perfect being would create something and desire their worship is, well, quite sickening really.

Why is it sickening, I see it as the greatest loving relationship possible. Worship is loving God, through many different ways, but all within God's will. Why in God's will Because He is omniscient and knows what will make the best life for us, He gave you the free will to reject His will, you are not being forced into anything to do with God. I believe God wanting/desiring my love is an awesome thing and I see the great things that come from such a relationship.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's GC, right on cue, to remind you heretics (that's you, Chad, btw) that you've got your idea of god all fucked up.