Saying this to an religious fanatic

[Consilius]

I'm going to skip the argument about suffering in Hell and say this:
Praising God is not forced labor. It is a voluntary reaction to the goodness people see in the world.
"To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22
The term 'sacrifice' can cover physical offerings to God as well as praise, worship, and other things done FOR God.
Now, to obey…obey what?
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34
If God saw any need for punishment (Hell not included), it would be because someone failed to obey THAT commandment.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I'm going to skip the argument about suffering in Hell and say this:
Praising God is not forced labor. It is a voluntary reaction to the goodness people see in the world.

My voluntary reaction is to praise the people responsible, when I see goodness in the world. Because people are actually real, and it's a waste of time praising an invisible, not real, being.

To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams." 1 Samuel 15:22
The term 'sacrifice' can cover physical offerings to God as well as praise, worship, and other things done FOR God.
Now, to obey…obey what?
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34
If God saw any need for punishment (Hell not included), it would be because someone failed to obey THAT commandment.

My eyes glaze over when people start quoting the bible. I couldn't put into words just how unimportant an opinion based on that book is to me.

[Consilius]

People praise God for the people that are in their lives. Of course, this doesn't take any credit from other people, just attributes it through them and ultimately to something greater.
You can't give people credit for everything e.g. who you are, your capabilities, surviving a flood, living in a First World country

Funny. If I don't quote the Bible, it looks like I'm drawing on morality from non-Christian sources. Now I am using the holy book of Christians that people claim to be evil and self-contradictory, but nobody cares to listen when the Bible is quoted in a pro-Christian way.

[NomenMihiNon]

People praise God for the people that are in their lives. Of course, this doesn't take any credit from other people, just attributes it through them and ultimately to something greater.
You can't give people credit for everything e.g. who you are, your capabilities, surviving a flood, living in a First World country

And what of those afflicted with crippling mental and physical problems, who've lost loved ones to natural disasters, who live in squalor in Third World hellholes, or any others whose lives are full of suffering through no fault of their own? What do they have to praise God for? As I said before, I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of a god, though I admit I could be wrong. However, I am certain that if there is a god, he is not the loving, compassionate entity that Christians and so many others claim him to be.

And to again address the specific fallacy of Christianity: either God is perfect, therefore meaning that our flaws are intentional, or God is not perfect and thus our flaws were a mistake on his part; whichever is the case, for him to condemn us for those flaws makes him a monster unworthy of worship. And as a Catholic, I'm assuming you believe in the immaculate conception? Well, if God was able to make Mary exempt from original sin, why couldn't he have done that for all of us instead of arbitrarily declaring that we're all born guilty of the wrongdoings of our ancestors? Oh, yeah, because then it'd be pointless for us to gather in a special building once a week and beg his forgiveness for being as he made us...and while we're there, put our money in the plate and allow the organization that owns the building to control how we live our lives.

[Doubting Thomas]

I think what the poster is trying to ask is "Why would an all-powerful and infinitely intelligent being create the entire universe and then bother with punishing people on one tiny little speck if they don't constantly kiss his ass?" Which is a valid question and could even be boiled down to, "Why does the all-powerful creator of the universe even want or need us to worship him?" If a being is all-knowing and all-powerful, then it'd know how powerful and great it is and wouldn't need a bunch of hairless apes on a tiny little rock floating in his vast creation to tell him so. But yet, that's the entire basis of Christianity. God created us to constantly kiss his ass, and if we don't we get punished.

[Consilius]

Worship of God isn't in itself an act of virtue. Praise of God is a response to the good we percieve in the world and in our lives. We exist to experience this good, and hopefully trace back to its source, which is the unchanging source of good. Worship is a way of saying "thank you", and not "don't smite me. don't smite me. don't smite me…" Christianity isn't a religion of fear, but instead one of love and respect.

---

People praise God for the people that are in their lives. Of course, this doesn't take any credit from other people, just attributes it through them and ultimately to something greater.
You can't give people credit for everything e.g. who you are, your capabilities, surviving a flood, living in a First World country

And what of those afflicted with crippling mental and physical problems, who've lost loved ones to natural disasters, who live in squalor in Third World hellholes, or any others whose lives are full of suffering through no fault of their own? What do they have to praise God for? As I said before, I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of a god, though I admit I could be wrong. However, I am certain that if there is a god, he is not the loving, compassionate entity that Christians and so many others claim him to be.

People experience suffering. But the good we feel is subjective. Some people see good in the world when their movie goes big, others, when they are with friends or spouses, and others see the same, if not much more, when someone drops a dollar into their cup. Objective evaluation of what people have to be thankful for belittles the fortune of other people and magnifies that of others. But when we all feel it, is really IS the same.
Did you know that in a study is was shown people can only afford to stay on one level of happiness? It is the same as everybody else's, and it can have ups and downs, too. But our brains can't feel sad or happy all the time; rather, they adjust to our personal circumstances. War prisoners are on the same level of happiness as warlords.
But when people DO experience something, the option Christianity gives them is to embrace the constant love of God in their lives, which was the same at points in their lives when they could feel it in the good things that happen to them. These times of trial have the ability to make people come out as better, stronger, and more decided of their course of action than when they went in.

And to again address the specific fallacy of Christianity: either God is perfect, therefore meaning that our flaws are intentional, or God is not perfect and thus our flaws were a mistake on his part; whichever is the case, for him to condemn us for those flaws makes him a monster unworthy of worship. And as a Catholic, I'm assuming you believe in the immaculate conception? Well, if God was able to make Mary exempt from original sin, why couldn't he have done that for all of us instead of arbitrarily declaring that we're all born guilty of the wrongdoings of our ancestors? Oh, yeah, because then it'd be pointless for us to gather in a special building once a week and beg his forgiveness for being as he made us...and while we're there, put our money in the plate and allow the organization that owns the building to control how we live our lives.

Mary was exempt from ORIGINAL sin because she was born to carry divine cargo. Jesus couldn't have sin in him at all, or else he would be an imperfect savior. The man who reversed Adam's sin couldn't be born into it.
Mary probably lived a normal life in which she arrived at her own shortcomings, and sinned on her own, like all normal human beings do.
This divine cargo is also why we believe in the Assumption: the body that carried God couldn't be allowed to rot in the ground.

[meak]

I just want to applaud you for commenting here. I'm not Catholic but the more people that disagree with each other, the more that can be learn I think.

[Mister Agenda]

To the OP, maybe you could ask them if they've considered Universalism, the doctrine that sooner or later, everyone gets into heaven. The Universalists make a biblical case for it (that Jesus redeemed everyone), and as Christians go, I find them much more pleasant than brimstone types.

[Rahul]

What kind of an response can I hear in return?


I'm asking this because I want to see if there are any good theist answers.

The answer I would have given way back when I still believed would be that god doesn't send anyone to hell. They send themselves from being sinful.

God gave his only begotten son to save you from that fate. Like throwing a life preserver to a drowning person. Just grab it.

One time in church a preacher had a story. Went like this.

An area experienced extreme flooding. A house started to get swallowed by the water. As it rose, he had to move up to the second floor. A guy in a boat came by. Tried to get him to get in so he could take him to safety. The man replied that god would take care of him and wouldn't let him drown.

A little while later he had to crawl up into the attic. Another boat. Same story.

Eventually he was sitting on top of his roof as the water got still higher and a helicopter came by. The guy once again refused saying that god would take care of him.

The water kept rising, the guy got swept away, and died.

He shows up in heaven, walks up to god, and says, "Why did you let me drown?"

God replied, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

Yeah, it's that kind of reasoning. Of course they ignore the fact that god invented hell and the eternal suffering of the soul in that place.

The really odd contradictory thinking in Christianity is that god is all-powerful but he can't do certain things. He can't look on sin for one thing. And somehow hell is beyond his control. He can't help you about that fate unless you accept his "gift". It's all pretty bonkers when you get on the outside and consider it. But it made some kind of retarded sense when you're a believer.

And they'll do this to you, too. Get in a good 15 minute conversation with one of them and in that time period, without even so much as blinking, they will say god can do anything, but 3 minutes later god can't do this or that. If you point it out to them they get this confused look on their face at the obvious contradictory way of their thinking, and change the subject to something else.

Most of them shut down mentally. They don't pursue the thought. I pursued the thought that I was holding mutually contradictory means of thinking, of rationalizing religion. That's why I deconverted.

I read once that only roughly 1 in 12 people raised in religion deconvert. Not switch religions or denominations, but go from believer to non-believer.

I'm one of the lucky ones. My parents, who are awesome by the way, and my only sibling, who is a jerk by the way, weren't so lucky. They're still trapped.

[little_monkey]

I praise the sun. At least that motherload gives us all the energy we need to live on this planet.