Atheists Claim Agnostics are Atheist

[Ranger Mike]

All,

I find it interesting and somewhat ironic that atheists continuously make the claim that all agnostics are essentially atheist. While I understand the distinction many atheists have made, I do not agree! Atheism pertains directly to the BELIEF, or in this case the lack thereof, of any gods or god, the afterlife, the supernatural, and so forth. In contrast, agnosticism pertains the lack of KNOWLEDGE in the previously mentioned categories. As an agnostic, I have not committed to the concrete stance that I do not believe. I have also not made the assertion that I do believe. In my opinion, it is entirely acceptable to not have committed to one stance or the other; therefore, I am undecided and would not label myself an atheist. Whether atheists are willing to accept this or not it is my opinion that is much more logical to maintain the "middle ground" in this respect. Anyways, those are my thoughts.

-Mike[/i]

[Cyberman]

Hi Mike, welcome aboard! Why not pop into our Introductions forum, help yourself to a tall frosty beverage and tell us a little about yourself?

On the subject at hand: while it's not impossible, I myself have never come across any of these atheists of whom you speak, the ones making the claim you mention. I agree, and I'm sure many of us here agree, with your summation that theism and atheism pertain to one's belief (though I question the broadening of the definition to include anything beyond god claims) while gnosticism/agnosticism does indeed correlate with what one knows.

However, the terms are not mutually exclusive and, in point of fact, complement one another to give a more thorough snapshot of a person's position. Hence, one can be a gnostic theist, agnostic theist, agnostic atheist or a gnostic atheist.

[Gilgamesh]

Not believing or believing aren't assertions. If you don't know whether a god exists, you're an agnostic. Now, do you believe any of the god claims to be true? Don't tell me you don't know what you believe.

Also, how is it logical to say agnosticism is a middle-ground, relative to atheism and theism, but then also say agnosticism pertains to something completely different than atheism and theism? It's not. Agnosticism is not a middle-ground. It's an answer to an entirely different question.

[Doubting Thomas]

I agree with Gilgamesh. If you aren't sure whether or not a god exists, then you wouldn't believe in one, so therefore you definitely wouldn't be a theist. At any rate, most agnostics tend to be treated the same as atheists by Christians, so they're often in the same boat as us.

[Faith No More]

If you have not made the assertion that you believe, you don't believe, right? Belief is binary. You either do, or you don't. As Gil said, there is no middle ground.

Simply stating that you have not made the assertion that you do not believe does not change the fact that you cannot assert that you do believe. If you cannot assert that you believe, you don't believe.

[Rhizomorph13]

If you aren't sure whether or not a god exists, then you wouldn't believe in one, so therefore you definitely wouldn't be a theist.

This is not a true statement. Most theists are agnostic as well as most atheists. Agnostic/gnostic answers the question of whether a question is knowable or not. Many sects of Christianity require that God be unknowable because then it requires that leap of faith to "choose Jesus". I don't think belief works that way though. We have ideas in our brain and from those ideas we arrive at our beliefs.

While I understand the distinction many atheists have made, I do not agree! Atheism pertains directly to the BELIEF, or in this case the lack thereof, of any gods or god, the afterlife, the supernatural, and so forth.

-Mike[/i]

Atheism means you do not believe in any gods; nothing more. It is perfectly possible to believe in a Heaven even if you didn't believe in God.

[Minimalist]

I find it interesting and somewhat ironic that atheists continuously make the claim that all agnostics are essentially atheist.

Frankly, most theists are essentially atheists - there are thousands of gods they do not believe in and every one is as valid as the one they insist is real.

I try never to fall into the trap of expressing "belief" that there is no god.
There is no evidence for any gods. And that is sufficient to deposit all of them in the wastebin of history.

[Cato]

What's amusing to me is the fact that self proclaimed agnostics are only agnostic regarding the concept of god. Self proclaimed agnostics are never agnostic when it comes to Santa, the Lock Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Unicorns, rich Leprechauns, or alien anal probing.

Considering this, it's a very small wonder why atheists consider agnostics 'essentially atheist'.

[Something completely different]

Atheists Claim Agnostics are Atheist

Never claimed such a thing.

[Gilgamesh]

Never claimed such a thing.

He never said you did.