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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 12:24 am
(August 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Undeceived Wrote: (August 16, 2013 at 1:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: How about: the same moral system you use to determine whether your god is good?
God is my standard. How else would you know an objective good, unless someone/something non-subjective made the rules?
So how did you decide that god is the good one and satan the evil one? You opted to follow god- many others don't- so there's clearly a decision you've made that god is the good one; how did you make that decision, if not with a preconceived moral compass?
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 12:36 am
(August 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Undeceived Wrote: (August 16, 2013 at 1:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: How about: the same moral system you use to determine whether your god is good?
God is my standard. How else would you know an objective good, unless someone/something non-subjective made the rules?
If there's one thing a year at Atheist Forums has taught me, it's that you can virtually always count on a theist to have absolutely no ability to tell objectivity and subjectivity apart.
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:12 am
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2013 at 1:20 am by Undeceived.)
(August 17, 2013 at 12:24 am)Esquilax Wrote: (August 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm)Undeceived Wrote: God is my standard. How else would you know an objective good, unless someone/something non-subjective made the rules?
So how did you decide that god is the good one and satan the evil one? You opted to follow god- many others don't- so there's clearly a decision you've made that god is the good one; how did you make that decision, if not with a preconceived moral compass?
God is objectively good because he is the Creator. He is also subjectively good, according to the Christian, because we experience his love and respond to it. "We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19) So I believe the answer you're looking for is that my initial moral compass was me. I viewed God as good in the light of how he treated me. It's the human way. The Christian's moral code is an objective one, but how are we to judge God objectively before we convert? Thus our initial moral compass must be subjective. But whether God is objectively good is another matter entirely. God is the way he is. He has a right to all things, because he created them. We perceive his actions as positive or negative depending on whether they have a positive or negative effect on us. But does one negative effect automatically make God's intentions--and therefore his character--evil? How could it?
If you or anyone wants to continue this discussion, please differentiate between objective and subjective good.
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:22 am
Quote:God is objectively good because he is the Creator.
And if it is nothing more than a figment of some primitive fool's imagination you are pretty well fucked, aren't you?
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:24 am
(August 17, 2013 at 1:12 am)Undeceived Wrote: God is objectively good because he is the Creator.
What does being a creator have to do with being objectively good?
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:37 am
(August 17, 2013 at 1:22 am)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:God is objectively good because he is the Creator.
And if it is nothing more than a figment of some primitive fool's imagination you are pretty well fucked, aren't you?
Even if God is totally real, it's a non-sequitur. Nothing about being the creator of the universe implies goodness.
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:48 am
(August 17, 2013 at 1:12 am)Undeceived Wrote: God is objectively good because he is the Creator.
You might as well have said that god is objectively good, because he is bacon.
Quote:If you or anyone wants to continue this discussion, please differentiate between objective and subjective good.
If you had a subjective moral compass before you converted, and somehow found the wherewithal to figure out which things were good and which were bad, then you already know the answer to your "fill in the blanks" question from a few pages back. The only difference between you and I, from the perspective of an atheist, is that you've chosen- erroneously- to attribute the morals you already have to a fictitious creator being.
Incidentally, if you had a subjective moral compass that you used to select your "objective" standard in god, then this objective standard is mostly useless, and itself subjective. How is it objective if it's entirely opt-in? How is it objective if it contains numerous moral evils (you're not into slavery, I assume?)?
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 1:51 am
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2013 at 1:52 am by Bad Writer.)
@Undeceived: You do realize that "objective" and "subjective" are terms at odd with each other, right? He is the god of thd paradox, so I'm really not surprised that you believe that the good of your god is both of these things.
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 8:02 am
(August 17, 2013 at 1:48 am)Esquilax Wrote: You might as well have said that god is objectively good, because he is bacon.
That would actually make sense. Bacon is objectively good.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
August 17, 2013 at 8:03 am
I find it fascinating that every time a theist is asked about some quality of their god, including its nature, they immediately switch from talking about a god to talking about a book. You don't need many guesses to find out why.
(August 17, 2013 at 1:24 am)Psykhronic Wrote: What does being a creator have to do with being objectively good?
"God made us; God can take us out."
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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