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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm
(This post was last modified: July 10, 2013 at 5:12 pm by Inigo.)
(July 10, 2013 at 3:31 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: (July 10, 2013 at 3:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How's about you compose a belief statement for your profile so that we can appreciate your position fully?
This. And also, believing in god is synonymous with having faith in him, so your current title is an oxymoron, Inigo.
I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god.
(July 10, 2013 at 3:02 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: (July 10, 2013 at 1:12 pm)Inigo Wrote: I think I'm the only one here who genuinely doesn't give a toss what you want to call stuff. Call yourself whatever you want, all I'm interested in is what evidence you can provide to support your beliefs.
Why should someone that doesn't believe in a god have to give evidence for that denial of belief? If you tell me there's an invisible unicorn behind you, I'm not going to give you evidence as to why I don't take you at your word.
Do you believe that there are some acts that are not to be done, even by those who really want to do them?
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 6:55 pm
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god.
Why would anyone even try to do that when no one believes such instructions to exist in the first place?
First, you must establish that such instructions exist - then we can talk about where they come from.
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: Do you believe that there are some acts that are not to be done, even by those who really want to do them?
Contextually, sure. But that doesn't make the instructions to that effect rationally inescapable.
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 7:05 pm
Quote:I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god.
A really powerful ghost of a horse could have inescapable rational authority instead.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
Impersonation is treason.
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 7:09 pm
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god.
Well as others have already brought up, what is your justification for faith in the existence of these instructions? More to the point, what makes you think these instructions are in fact instructions, rather than an, say, evolutionary molded disposition towards certain advantageous behaviors? Because such would account for the 'moral sense' you've referred to, without them having to actually be a instructions even if they feel as such. Nor do I recall having read (in the pages I've so far read, which is admittedly few compared to the total) seen you actually say what these 'inescapably rational' instructions actually are (unless I missed them).
Quote:Do you believe that there are some acts that are not to be done, even by those who really want to do them?
Again, this would only seem to make sense within the context of having a particular goal or a set of goals. If the individual has different goals than you (say simply getting pleasure however they can), then clearly their goals would lead them to (try and) do what would complete them, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks (again depending on some goalset).
With regard to a reply of yours to me earlier: I wasn't arguing 'in bad faith'. The only relevance that the numbers had (as I explicitly stated... twice) was to show that if a claim made about a particular topic has bad or near non-existent support in the relevant academic discipline, that is good grounds for justify finding the claim suspicious. For example, if someone claims that they've disproven the theory of evolution by natural selection and demonstrated that intelligent design and YE Creationism is in fact the case, yet I notice that suchhas very miniscule support from actual biologists, I've good grounds for finding the claim dubious and in need of MAJOR defense. That does NOT the position false - which I stated - but if all you're going to say is that I'm merely covering myself, then I'd have to think it were actually you who is arguing in 'bad faith', if you're going to merely assume I'm being disingenuous rather than meanimg what I say.
Also, there's seems to be some confusion. I brought up the is-ought gap NOT to fight your argument. If you'll recall, I specifically brought it up - along with Hume on causation and a couple of scientific discoveties - as demonstrations that simply because something feels "intuitively obvious" has no inescapable bearing on the truth or falsity of something. It could be the case that out intuitions are pointing in the right directions, and as you noted there has been good scholarship on the times that it has, but MY point was that huge swaths of philosophical and scientific work have shown that our intuitions can be ass-backwards about so many things (like the ones I noted) that it's unreal.
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 8:15 pm
(This post was last modified: July 10, 2013 at 8:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god. ..............................................
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 10, 2013 at 10:50 pm
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority. But not in a god. If someone can show me how instructions that inescapably confer reasons to all to whom they are directed could be created by something other than a god, I'm all ears and I'll instantly drop my belief in a god.
Believing in god is the same as having faith in it. If you're afraid to accept that, then perhaps you're more of an agnostic.
Don't worry. That's a win.
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: (July 10, 2013 at 3:02 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Why should someone that doesn't believe in a god have to give evidence for that denial of belief? If you tell me there's an invisible unicorn behind you, I'm not going to give you evidence as to why I don't take you at your word.
Do you believe that there are some acts that are not to be done, even by those who really want to do them?
Yes. Rape is one of them. I don't see what your question has to do with you avoiding my my questions, especially since it has nothing to do with what I asked. And if they do, then you need to be a little less cryptic.
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 11, 2013 at 9:07 am
(July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: (July 10, 2013 at 3:31 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: This. And also, believing in god is synonymous with having faith in him, so your current title is an oxymoron, Inigo.
I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority.
But what does that (my bolded) even mean to you? Why do you have faith in that?
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 11, 2013 at 11:02 am
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2013 at 11:04 am by Bad Writer.)
(July 11, 2013 at 9:07 am)whateverist Wrote: (July 10, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Inigo Wrote: I don't have faith in the existence of a god. I have faith in the existence of instructions that have inescapable rational authority.
But what does that (my bolded) even mean to you? Why do you have faith in that?
I like AronRa's take on the idea of faith, that having it in anything is not a good idea. I understand that faith means different things to different people, but getting out of the habit of even using the word is a good idea overall.
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RE: Atheism and morality
July 11, 2013 at 11:21 am
Anything with The Texan Tank wins big kudos from me.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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