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Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:06 pm
Mary's husband is dead. She loved him and thought they had a great relationship and has many cherished memories that provide her with enormous comfort. However, unbeknownst to her he never loved her (just did a good impression of loving her) and was having lots of affairs. You know this, she doesn't. Telling her will not make her happy. It will distress her enormously. She'll be in touch with the truth, but it will make her unhappy. Would you tell her?
Personally, I think it would be horrible to tell her. I think you'd be a bad person.
Now imagine that in addition to loving him etc, she also believes that he wanted her to remain faithful to her even after he died. He never actually said this to her - she has no direct evidence. She just suspects this is what he would have wanted. Because she loved him so much she foregoes important relationships in order to honour thee wishes she assumes he had.
What do you do now? Do you tell her he never loved her -that her whole relationship with him was a sham and that he was having affairs all over town? That would certainly release her from her commitment to stay faithful to him. But it would also distress her enormously. Wouldn't it be better - more moral - to try and persuade her that he did not really wish her to forego important relationships?
I think so. I think it would be wrong to smash all those memories of hers and totally destroy her worldview just in order to free her from her commitment to honour her dead husband's supposed wishes. It is unnecessary and cruel. Just try and persuade her that her dead husband wished no such thing.
I think a lot of atheists behave in ways that are analogous to telling Mary her husband was a git and never loved her.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:11 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:19 pm by Ryantology.)
What if that husband never actually existed except in her own mind? That's a better analogy considering where you're obviously going with this.
It wouldn't be impossible to tell a half-truth and let her know that he did not ever express the desire that she forego all other relationships for his sake, without mentioning the fact that he didn't love her. She can hold onto what is only a harmless misconception while still having the ability to enjoy her life as she should.
Believing in a fictional God is not the problem with theists, really. It's when belief in a fictional god inspires real-world consequences that it becomes a problem.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:14 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm by Foxaèr.)
I would tell her. I would tell anyone the truth for the simple reason that I would want to know the truth in their positions.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:22 pm by paulpablo.)
(July 3, 2013 at 7:06 pm)Inigo Wrote: Mary's husband is dead. She loved him and thought they had a great relationship and has many cherished memories that provide her with enormous comfort. However, unbeknownst to her he never loved her (just did a good impression of loving her) and was having lots of affairs. You know this, she doesn't. Telling her will not make her happy. It will distress her enormously. She'll be in touch with the truth, but it will make her unhappy. Would you tell her?
Personally, I think it would be horrible to tell her. I think you'd be a bad person.
Now imagine that in addition to loving him etc, she also believes that he wanted her to remain faithful to her even after he died. He never actually said this to her - she has no direct evidence. She just suspects this is what he would have wanted. Because she loved him so much she foregoes important relationships in order to honour thee wishes she assumes he had.
What do you do now? Do you tell her he never loved her -that her whole relationship with him was a sham and that he was having affairs all over town? That would certainly release her from her commitment to stay faithful to him. But it would also distress her enormously. Wouldn't it be better - more moral - to try and persuade her that he did not really wish her to forego important relationships?
I think so. I think it would be wrong to smash all those memories of hers and totally destroy her worldview just in order to free her from her commitment to honour her dead husband's supposed wishes. It is unnecessary and cruel. Just try and persuade her that her dead husband wished no such thing.
I think a lot of atheists behave in ways that are analogous to telling Mary her husband was a git and never loved her.
I would definitely tell her, to stop her life being one big delusion, and so she could spend the rest of her life getting it on and having some fun with a few guys, instead of sitting around depressed thinking about her dead husband who never even loved her anyway, easy question.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
Impersonation is treason.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:22 pm
Yes, those horrible, immoral atheists that try to get people to accept reality as it is. Assholes.
What you fail to realize is that Mary can find an even better relationship once she accepts that her husband was a dick and there are better fish out there that will love her for who she is.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:24 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:24 pm by Cyberman.)
That OP's the longest runup to a non-sequitur I think I've ever seen. Really, it does look like that last line was tacked on as an afterthought to justify the thread title.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:26 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:27 pm by Inigo.)
(July 3, 2013 at 7:11 pm)Ryantology Wrote: What if that husband never actually existed except in her own mind? That's a better analogy considering where you're obviously going with this.
It wouldn't be impossible to tell a half-truth and let her know that he did not ever express the desire that she forego all other relationships for his sake, without mentioning the fact that he didn't love her. She can hold onto what is only a harmless misconception while still having the ability to enjoy her life as she should.
Believing in a fictional God is not the problem with theists, really. It's when belief in a fictional god inspires real-world consequences that it becomes a problem.
Make him a figment of her imagination then. The distress will be the same - worse perhaps.
Anyway, you agree then - you agree it would be immoral and misguided to tell her? That what one should do - what a decent person would do - is challenge her evidence that he did not wish her to engage in other relationships rather than challenge the very existence of him/their relationship.
(July 3, 2013 at 7:14 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: I would tell her. I would tell anyone the truth for the simple reason that I would want to know the truth in their positions.
I think someone like that is a git.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:27 pm
You are making the enormous assumption that you know what's best for her.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm
(This post was last modified: July 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm by paulpablo.)
I think someone who posts threads like this is a twat with shit for brains inigo, since we're expressing opinions and everything
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
Impersonation is treason.
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RE: Immoral atheists
July 3, 2013 at 7:28 pm
(July 3, 2013 at 7:18 pm)paulpablo Wrote: (July 3, 2013 at 7:06 pm)Inigo Wrote: Mary's husband is dead. She loved him and thought they had a great relationship and has many cherished memories that provide her with enormous comfort. However, unbeknownst to her he never loved her (just did a good impression of loving her) and was having lots of affairs. You know this, she doesn't. Telling her will not make her happy. It will distress her enormously. She'll be in touch with the truth, but it will make her unhappy. Would you tell her?
Personally, I think it would be horrible to tell her. I think you'd be a bad person.
Now imagine that in addition to loving him etc, she also believes that he wanted her to remain faithful to her even after he died. He never actually said this to her - she has no direct evidence. She just suspects this is what he would have wanted. Because she loved him so much she foregoes important relationships in order to honour thee wishes she assumes he had.
What do you do now? Do you tell her he never loved her -that her whole relationship with him was a sham and that he was having affairs all over town? That would certainly release her from her commitment to stay faithful to him. But it would also distress her enormously. Wouldn't it be better - more moral - to try and persuade her that he did not really wish her to forego important relationships?
I think so. I think it would be wrong to smash all those memories of hers and totally destroy her worldview just in order to free her from her commitment to honour her dead husband's supposed wishes. It is unnecessary and cruel. Just try and persuade her that her dead husband wished no such thing.
I think a lot of atheists behave in ways that are analogous to telling Mary her husband was a git and never loved her.
I would definitely tell her, to stop her life being one big delusion, and so she could spend the rest of her life getting it on and having some fun with a few guys, instead of sitting around depressed thinking about her dead husband who never even loved her anyway, easy question.
Then I think your moral sense is off. You're disabuse someone of an idea that provides them with huge comfort for no reason other than that the belief is false? Don't you care about people's welfare?
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