Determinism.....

[fr0d0]

Wonderful. Thanks for going into that, I'm a little clearer on it now.

[solarwave]

Describes his will? Sort of. Our conative faculties inform and influence our will, and the instantiation of our will is the volitional activity called choice.

Here, let me lay out my understanding on this. In order for choice to be meaningful and morally significant, it must be deliberate. To make a deliberate choice is to contemplate a set of options (e.g., chocolate or vanilla pudding) and to instantiate that which enjoys the greater degree of our desires (e.g., chocolate pudding), whether those desires are rational or emotional or some concert of both. If we evaluate this series closely, we realize that our choices are a function of our conative faculties; for example, the choice of chocolate pudding is a causal chain that is propagated and filtered through the motivational complex of our desires. This is why choices of the will always reveal the character of the person. The causal chain runs through the agent's conative faculties, not irrespective of them (libertarianism) but concordantly with them. Put in other words, the volitional activity of our will actively shapes this causal chain, as opposed to passively responding to a causal chain (determinism). We are not puppets. Nothing makes our choices for us. We make our own choices. Although our will is determined or "causally necessitated," it is so in the right way by forces internal to the choice-maker, not external. We know from the laws of nature that determinism is real, but we also know from the human experience that choice is real. Compatibilism is the theory that takes both seriously and articulates them as co-existent realities.

You know I really dont understand what you are saying. At times it seems like you agree we are free and at others you seem to say we are determined. Obviously it is because you agree with compatibilism, but compatibilism just seems like determinism with free will defined slightly differently to make it sound nice. Agree that we will always act in accordance with our will, so there will only be one option we will choose and that we are the cause of our own actions, but then in the second to last sentance you say determinism is real. So do you believe our lives couldn't ever have gone any differently, that our choices are in fact a combination of genetics and events happening to us, or that somehow there is a cross roads where a free mind can choose ether left or right? If not then how can we be morally responsible if we are a mere product of our birth and enviroment.

Heres my current problem; say I do a good thing. Why do I choose to do that rather than another thing. Is it a combination of nature and nurture, but if that is true it gives no area for a free will to act. If nature and nurture just give a tendency to act a certain way then it might be possible to act freely. But then why would a free will choose to act one way rather than another? If two people are given the same good opportunity to do why would one choose good and the other choose evil if 'nature and nurture' only gives a tendency towards good or evil, how can we make a free choice between the two. We can't have a natural virtue to do good since that is deterministic and it can't be random since random isn't free.

I seem to be finding more problems with freedom, can anyone explain.... if what I have said makes sense that is lol.

[theVOID]

I for one reject determinism because of the fact that our actions directly affect our future, we are at least to an extent self-determining, and if we have any input what-so-ever into the future then there is no determinism because the future is the sum of the past up until the present, and the past contains decision.

[Ryft]

Compatibilism just seems like determinism with free will defined slightly differently to make it sound nice.

Free will is not being defined differently so much as properly, foremost by the rejection of "free will" as a misnomer because the will is not free. I once shared your confusion because, perhaps like you, I persisted in the notion that the will is free, but it was a confusion that disappeared when I let go of that idea, substituting it with "free agency" instead. But I had to be shown the incoherence of "free will"—how it creates a dissonance in our intuitions and is violently inconsistent with a biblical world view—before I was able to drop it and pursue a more coherent view. Indeterminism or "free will" simply does not work. But neither does determinism, which, when held consistently, results in the nihilistic repudiation of truth, knowledge, science, etc. Evidently the truth was somewhere in between. Ergo, compatibilism. It is coherent and consistent biblically, logically, intuitively, and scientifically.

In the second-to-last sentence you say that determinism is real. So do you believe our lives couldn't ever have gone any differently, that our choices are in fact a combination of genetics and events happening to us?

What I choose is determined by my will. What I will is determined by my character and desires. What my character and desires are is determined by my experiences and genetic makeup. What my experiences and genetic makeup are is determined by God. That is undeniably a causal series, so in one sense determinism is real. But as I had said, that causal chain runs through the agent's conative faculties, not irrespective of them but concordantly with them. And yet our conative and volitional faculties do not passively respond to this causal chain but in fact actively shape it. To put it another way: What we do is not irrespective of any reason, as indeterminism says, but for a reason; and that reason is not irrespective of us, as determinism says, but shaped by us.

How can we be morally responsible if we are a mere product of our birth and environment?

Because we are not automaton passively responding to the causal chain, but free agents actively shaping it.

If two people are given the same opportunity to do good, why would one choose good and the other choose evil if "nature and nurture" only gives a tendency towards good or evil? How can we make a free choice between the two? We can't have a natural virtue to do good since that is deterministic, and it can't be random since random isn't free.

Because there is more at operation than just "nature and nurture," which never inclines a man toward good at any rate but only evil (wherein the terms 'good' and 'evil' are being used consistent with the Christian view, not an anthropocentric view). That is, we do not have "a natural virtue to do good." The expression Augustine gave us for this condition was non posse non peccare (unable to not sin). Although everyone is naturally born and a slave to sin, some are later spiritually born and a slave to Christ. Only those spiritually born in Christ then have a tendency toward good or evil (posse peccare, posse non peccare) because of the additional operation of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. Regeneration (Gk. gennao anothen, born of above) is the difference between those who choose to do evil and those who choose to do good (e.g., Phil. 2:13). Man's will is free in the sense that his choices are a product of his own faculties, his own intellect and desires, influenced by his own character and heart. But it is for those precise same reasons that man's will is not free, because man's character, intellect, desires, etc., altogether are corrupted under the bondage of sin. Consequently, the degree to which man's will is free is proportionate to the degree that man is free from his sinful nature. And for the unregenerate sinner, he is not free from his sinful nature at all.

[Amphora]

Hey,

I was just wondering if you believe we are all determined by physics and so our lives were determined before we were born? Or that we can make our own choices?

Solarwave

Depends, we can think for ourselves, we can make our own choices. But there are somethings that were pre-determined before we were born.

[Edwardo Piet]

Depends what you mean 'make our own choices'. Do you mean the simple fact that we make choices, or do you mean that we can force our own choices despite the fact that the part of us that does the choosing, the part of that we call 'us', that we call our 'self'...is the brain and is what makes the choices. IOW: How can you control your brain with your brain? Your brain does the controlling!

Do you just mean the undeniable fact that we make choices? What do you mean by 'make our own'?

As the poll I'm not voting because it's a false dichotomy, because I'd probably like to vote "neither". I am not sure whether I am an indeterminism or determinism, but I think I would support indeterminism due to what I've heard about Quantum Mechanics. I'm a bit on the dark about that matter.

But I don't believe in "free will" because I don't think our will is "free", for reasons stated on this thread. I don't see how randomness, how indeterminacy can make your will "free". Freedom of possibility maybe, of fluctuation, but not freedom of Will, or IOW, not freedom of control.

I'm what's known as a pessimistic incompatibilist then it seems, according to Wikipedia. Because I would say I believe in indeterminacy, at least Quantum indeterminacy , and I would say I was an indeterminist on the whole: But I nevertheless, don't believe in free will.

EvF

[Amphora]

Depends what you mean 'make our own choices'. Do you mean the simple fact that we make choices, or do you mean that we can force our own choices despite the fact that the part of us that does the choosing, the part of that we call 'us', that we call our 'self'...is the brain and is what makes the choices. IOW: How can you control your brain with your brain? Your brain does the controlling!

Exactly your brain does the controlling! The BRAIN controls sensation, muscles, glandular activity, and the power to think and feel. From my esthetician book anatomy and physiology chapter nervous system part.

Do you just mean the undeniable fact that we make choices?

Yes. When I am thirsty I can choose to have a glass of water or what I am really thinking a nice cold beer sounds better. In the end I will decide.

What do you mean by 'make our own'?

I can choose to go out tonight or not that is my choice.

I'm what's known as a pessimistic compatibilist then it seems, according to Wikipedia. Because I would say I believe in indeterminacy, at least Quantum indeterminacy , and I would say I was an indeterminist on the whole: But I nevertheless, don't believe in free will.

Oh so you believe:

is the belief that free will and determinism are logically incompatible categories.[1] This could include believing that determinism is reality, therefore free will is an illusion (hard determinism), or that free will is true, therefore determinism is not (libertarianism), or even that neither determinism nor free will is true (pessimistic incompatibilism).[2]

I found this on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibili...patibilism

And that is your choice, you choose not to believe in free will. And thats ok.

Amp

[Edwardo Piet]

Exactly your brain does the controlling! The BRAIN controls sensation, muscles, glandular activity, and the power to think and feel. From my esthetician book anatomy and physiology chapter nervous system part.

Yes. It is simply doing what it is doing, and I am doing what I am doing. So at any given moment that is all I can do, so it doesn't make sense to blame people unless that has a good effect for the future: Because at any given moment they could have done nothing different...the fact that they choose and can learn from their mistakes, is another matter. There's a difference between choice and free choice. Yes I have a choice, yes I have a Will, but how is it 'free'?

Yes. When I am thirsty I can choose to have a glass of water or what I am really thinking a nice cold beer sounds better. In the end I will decide.

Yes you choose, yes you decide. Or IOW, your brain does: And...how is that process 'free'? How can you do anything other than what you are doing at any given moment? How could people justly blame you or take revenge on you if you did something wrong, if at the moment you did the hypothetical act - you couldn't have done any different?

So can you 'do otherwise' at any given moment or not? And if so...how? I know of no evidence that any of us can...we are not exempt from the natural laws of the universe: We are part of it. We are just doing what we are doing.

So yes we have choices: That is totally obvious. Yes we have a Will: This is obvious, we make decisions, we contemplate things, etc...but how is this process 'free'?

This is not a debate on whether we have a Will or not, or whether we make Choices or not - it's a debate on whether it's 'free' or not.

I believe we make choices, I believe we have Wills. Why? That's a trivial matter to discuss because it's so obvious IMO. What I am discussing is whether our choices, whether our Will is 'free' or not. I don't believe it is.

I can choose to go out tonight or not that is my choice.

Of course. That is extremely obvious, people make choices all the time. But is your choice 'free'? Are choices 'free'? Is the Will, 'free'?

And that is your choice, you choose not to believe in free Will. And thats ok.

I don't believe that Belief itself is a choice, we are compelled by things. Belief is not a matter of policy, it's not something we choose - like saying "...I think I will have the cheese and onion flavour please..." - but that's a slightly different matter...

...So for sake of argument I will accept and say that yes I do choose to not believe in free Will. But I will say that despite it being a choice, it's not a free one. And whatever I or you 'choose' to believe, won't change the reality of the matter that our choices aren't free, and our Will isn't free. I disbelieve that our Will itself is free, that our choices are free - it's not that I disbelieve that we make choices or have a Will at all, that's undeniably obvious.

P.S: I edited my previous post here, I meant to say that I'm a pessimistic incompatabilist not compatabilist.

EvF

[Amphora]

Yes. It is simply doing what it is doing, and I am doing what I am doing. So at any given moment that is all I can do, so it doesn't make sense to blame people unless that has a good effect for the future: Because at any given moment they could have done nothing different...the fact that they choose and can learn from their mistakes, is another matter. There's a difference between choice and free choice. Yes I have a choice, yes I have a Will, but how is it 'free'?

IMO I don't how our will is free. Here is the wiki definition for free will: Free will raises the question whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions, decisions, choices. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic

Yes you choose, yes you decide. Or IOW, your brain does: And...how is that process 'free'? How can you do anything other than what you are doing at any given moment? How could people justly blame you or take revenge on you if you did something wrong, if at the moment you did the hypothetical act - you couldn't have done any different?

Depends on what they are blamming me on. If I did something wrong and someone was taking revenge on me, I would find out what I had did wrong, and try resolving the issue. I couldn't have done any different (hypothetical act)

So can you 'do otherwise' at any given moment or not? And if so...how? I know of no evidence that any of us can...we are not exempt from the natural laws of the universe: We are part of it. We are just doing what we are doing.

No I would not do otherwise. Exactly so we are doing what we are doing

This is not a debate on whether we have a Will or not, or whether we make Choices or not - it's a debate on whether it's 'free' or not.

It is not free

I believe we make choices, I believe we have Wills. Why? That's a trivial matter to discuss because it's so obvious IMO. What I am discussing is whether our choices, whether our Will is 'free' or not. I don't believe it is.

Our choice and our will is not free

But is your choice 'free'? Are choices 'free'? Is the Will, 'free'?

No they are not free

[solarwave]

Arcanus: I think I understand what you mean now, but I dont see how there is any moral responsibility in it.

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EvidenceVsFaith: Quantum Theory only applies to the very small but when the very small randomness builds up it is predictable.