What if Jesus had failed?

[Faith No More]

The Jews "copied" a few myths and folktales from the near east and Babylon but it was with an important monotheistical twist when they did do this. Jesus was a revolutionary and reformer within Judaism, as he was a Jewish Rabbi himself he wasn't particularly copying anything at all. Mohammed and Joesph Smith just took chunks of the Bible/Torah and re-mastered them basically. It's fairly obvious to see that this was a deliberate manufacture on their part.

But why is it that when the Jews did it, it's a "twist," while the others are a deliberate manufacture?

True though I don't think Jesus knew anything about Confucianism or whatever else, his inspiration was the Jewish Torah and God/himself. It's just a universal truth and certain enlightened individuals throughout the world through the Holy Spirit have come to understand and preach it.

Are you seriously trying to claim the achievements of all of other religions as those of your own? Do you have any evidence for this boldly presumptuous claim?

Though you no doubt think morality is essentially just your own opinion, or the opinion of a collective culture of which you're part and/or something to do with evolutionary programming. Without God that's all it can be I suppose.

Perhaps, but that's irrelevant to your claim.

[Sword of Christ]

They seem to have learned that from the Zoroastrian Persians. It is nothing by re-cycled shit.

They may have got the concept of Satan from Ahriman but the important difference is that Satan isn't an equal to God but merely a created creature who rebelled against God and encourages others to do the same. But the Torah/Old Testament is a history of the Jewish people specifically and their relationship with the one God of all that exists. Not just the Jewish people but everything and everyone in the universe. So that's some important exclusive content there. In Christianity that one of God the universe becomes a man so that's even more exclusive content there. Mohammed adds nothing new, he just remixes some of the stories, removes Jesus divinity and the doctrine of the Trinity, restores some Rabbinic Laws and introduces some Arabic Pagan practices. Don't even get started on what Joesph Smith did to it. What these prophets generally add is themselves, in such a way that it empowered themselves to get more women in the sack.

But why is it that when the Jews did it, it's a "twist," while the others are a deliberate manufacture?

The Jews were the first fully monotheistic civilized culture on Earth (though the ancient Egyptians tried it for 20 years). So while the story of Noahs Ark derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh it talks about Gods relationship as creator of the Earth, all living things, the environment and also the subjects of human sin and new beginnings, Gods wrath and Gods forgiveness are covered. You don't really get all this in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Killing practically every living thing on Earth accept for what was on the Ark was a little bit harsh yes but in the supplementary Jewish literature (Book of Enoch) he was trying to cleanse the Earth of the Nephilim who were the result of the fallen angels breeding with humans and corrupting their bloodline/DNA or whatever. Ascension of the Metatron is a pretty good video game based on the Book of Enoch if you ever played that.

Are you seriously trying to claim the achievements of all of other religions as those of your own? Do you have any evidence for this boldly presumptuous claim?

They're all achievements of mankind in union with the ultimate reality and source of all being and all that exists that is God. Christianity just gives you the full picture in Christ. No-one approaches the father accept through him, who is also himself God of course, the genuine article you could say. Jesus himself made this bold claim himself so if you're a Christian this is what you believe. Evidence wise you have the Bible, the Biblical prophecies, the resurrection of Christ and the empty tomb and the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. As far as scientific evidence is concerned you have absolutely nothing at all, not that there is any scientific evidence to support the bold claims of atheism either so there isn't really much for you to complain about. I'd say Christians have a little bit more evidence to go on if anything, something is better than nothing at all. Christianity as a faith may be mistaken but the claim that God doesn't exist or there is no good reason to believe God exists could also just as well be very mistaken indeed. If you want to compare Christianity to the other religions I think it more than holds its own in distinction, rather than it being a copy or rip-off. One of the central themes is that salvation is through the grace of God given as a gift rather than solely through your own efforts and works. You get that in no other religion.

[Godscreated]

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Most (all?) Christian denominations believe that god took on a human form and offered it as a sacrifice that presents imperfect and sinful humans the opportunity to be saved. The Biblical story of Jesus' life tells us that he succeeded in this endeavor. As a hypothetical, what do you think would have happened had he failed? I can only really imagine that he would have failed by committing a sin and therefore becoming imperfect.

First, an explanation of the poll options:

1- Didn't happen: this is the one to select if you lack imagination or are worried about speculating on such things. Since the Bible tells us that Jesus succeeded in offering a perfect life as a sacrifice, you find the whole discussion to be moot.

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2- Couldn't happen: there are two ways to consider this. One, that it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. That would imply that the whole thing was rigged. Two, that as a perfect human being, Jesus could only have committed a sin through a willful act. And that would have been completely contrary to what he took on a human form to do, as well as giving Satan a victory. That also implies that the game was rigged, in that Jesus would have had to act against his nature in order to fail.

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3- Reset button: this is where things can get interesting. Let's assume that he did fail. He knowingly committed a sin and could no longer offer up his human form as a ransom for humanity. What would happen? Would he simply conjure up a new body and start over? Would he consider the whole experiment a failure and wipe out Earth, or even the whole universe? It's not like the next Earth/universe would ever have to know that he messed up. In all honesty, what do you think would have been the ramifications of failure?

4- The End of All Things: or would failure have created a paradox that would have necessarily destroyed even god himself? If Jesus failed, then Satan was right. If Jesus failed, then creation was not "good" and god was not infallible. God would have become something competely contrary to his nature and could not survive such a discrepancy.

The fourth option makes the second one seem the most plausible. It was impossible for god to fail, and therefore the game was rigged. Jesus could not have done any differently than he did, which made his sacrifice superfluous. Does that make sense?

BONUS QUESTION: Is it possible that this isn't the first universe that god created? Or the first planet populated with sentient beings? Maybe we're the third or fourth iteration, and god is STILL getting it wrong? If he wiped everything out and started over, how would we know? Maybe he just seems infallible because we haven't searched far enough in the universe to find the carpet that he swept his earlier messes under?

HOW WOULD WE KNOW???? omg!

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Well I picked #2 because it's true. God could not have failed, it would be against His nature, this being true means it was not rigged, it was planned for success, the prophecies about Christ in the OT testify to this. Why would there been a need for failure, Christ came to redeem mankind for those who would accept His work, He came to give us a gift not to win anything, you speak as if this is a game, you should know Christ was not playing games.

[smax]

The 'word' in Koine greek that we translate into 'generation' is:γενεά genea which can mean:

As predicted...Drippy dipping into his Apologetic Shitbag of Silly Excuses for Why The Bible is Right.

Any time the Bible is wrong about something it becomes a master code book that only the most spiritually enlightened are privileged enough to understand.

[Minimalist]

They may have got the concept of Satan from Ahriman

Your really do need to put your bible down and start to learn about other cultures/religion.

There is NOTHING pre-dating the Persian period which gives any indication that the inhabitants of Judah were anything other than run of the mill Canaanites who were moving in the direction of henotheism...much as Babylon had done with Marduk.

I highly recommend Philip R. Davies "In Search of Ancient Israel."

[smax]

The fact is, Jesus told his followers, as well as rulers and religious elders of the time, that he would return within their lifetime to fullfill the events of the endtimes.

In accordance with that, most of the New Testament writers wrote as if the end was imminently near. Apparently, they weren't as spiritually as today's Christians, who have access to the super decoder.

[Faith No More]

The Jews were the first fully monotheistic civilized culture on Earth (though the ancient Egyptians tried it for 20 years). So while the story of Noahs Ark derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh it talks about Gods relationship as creator of the Earth, all living things, the environment and also the subjects of human sin and new beginnings, Gods wrath and Gods forgiveness are covered. You don't really get all this in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Killing practically every living thing on Earth accept for what was on the Ark was a little bit harsh yes but in the supplementary Jewish literature (Book of Enoch) he was trying to cleanse the Earth of the Nephilim who were the result of the fallen angels breeding with humans and corrupting their bloodline/DNA or whatever. Ascension of the Metatron is a pretty good video game based on the Book of Enoch if you ever played that.

In other words, special pleading.

They're all achievements of mankind in union with the ultimate reality and source of all being and all that exists that is God. Christianity just gives you the full picture in Christ. No-one approaches the father accept through him, who is also himself God of course, the genuine article you could say. Jesus himself made this bold claim himself so if you're a Christian this is what you believe.

In other words, yes, you are claiming all other religious achievements as your own.

Evidence wise you have the Bible, the Biblical prophecies, the resurrection of Christ and the empty tomb and the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. As far as scientific evidence is concerned you have absolutely nothing at all, not that there is any scientific evidence to support the bold claims of atheism either so there isn't really much for you to complain about.

Stop right there. You are creating a straw man of atheism. Atheism needs no scientific evidence. It is merely the stance that you, and all other believers, have failed to meet the burden of proof that your god exists.

I'd say Christians have a little bit more evidence to go on if anything, something is better than nothing at all.

If that something is not true, not, it is not better than nothing at all.

Christianity as a faith may be mistaken but the claim that God doesn't exist or there is no good reason to believe God exists could also just as well be very mistaken indeed. If you want to compare Christianity to the other religions I think it more than holds its own in distinction, rather than it being a copy or rip-off. One of the central themes is that salvation is through the grace of God given as a gift rather than solely through your own efforts and works. You get that in no other religion.

Despite its differences, it is still derivative of previous religions, such as a savior that resurrects from the dead was a well-worn theme by the point that Jesus' story came along.

[Ryantology]

Evidence wise you have the Bible, the Biblical prophecies, the resurrection of Christ and the empty tomb and the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is evidence only that someone was creative enough to invent fictional prophecies and fantasy events such as resurrection, the empty tomb, and the holy spirit.

As far as scientific evidence is concerned you have absolutely nothing at all, not that there is any scientific evidence to support the bold claims of atheism either so there isn't really much for you to complain about.

You have absolutely nothing at all, correct. And, since you are the ones making the positive claim, you're failing miserably at demonstrating its validity.

I'd say Christians have a little bit more evidence to go on if anything, something is better than nothing at all.

Wishful thinking is evidence only of the human mind's occasional inability to dissociate fantasy from reality.

Christianity as a faith may be mistaken but the claim that God doesn't exist or there is no good reason to believe God exists could also just as well be very mistaken indeed.

But, since you cannot demonstrate that your God is anything but a violent fantasy, the chances that we're mistaken seem remarkably slim.

If you want to compare Christianity to the other religions I think it more than holds its own in distinction, rather than it being a copy or rip-off. One of the central themes is that salvation is through the grace of God given as a gift rather than solely through your own efforts and works. You get that in no other religion.

Christianity is distinct from other religions only in its details and some of its methods, but it is just as obviously nonsensical as every other religion.

[Drich]

Look at the Story of the Prodigal son. The 'Father' was pained by the son's decision to leave, and over joyed when he returned. Even though the Father was pained at His sons departure, it does not mean the Father lost his position as the Father, just because he felt pain.

Nope. God knows everything that will ever happen because he is responsible for everything that happens. He is the prime mover. It is illogical to be pained by something that happens exactly as you design it to happen and for the reasons you designed it to happen, and he could have prevented it anyway, with total ease, had he wanted to. If he is truly pained by anything, it means that his omni-qualities and perfection are falsehoods because such a being should be impossible to surprise, even with free will in the equation.

How can you possiably know what it did or did not cost God if you refuse to accept anything written in the bible about it?

The very idea of cost to an all-powerful and all-knowing God is illogical. His time and resources and power are supposed to be infinite. Nothing can cost such a being any kind of effort.

Don't blame me because your shit doesn't make sense. I didn't invent it.

It only does not make sense because you will not compromise on your ideas of the character of the very same God you say does not exist. This is one of the things that drives me crazy about you guys. You say there is no God, but he works, acts and thinks this way only! Why can't you understand that your picture of God is wrong? When will you get that the reason nothing makes sense is because the God you think christianity worships, was built by people like you to be a model of contradictions that even the simplest mind can logically defeat?

When your ready to put down your version of God and wish to finish this discussion using the God of the Bible as your standard let me know.

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It's just a universal truth and certain enlightened individuals throughout the world through the Holy Spirit have come to understand and preach it.

And, how do we know that Christians aren't getting some universal understanding which originates from another god? Or from none at all?

Because a 'revelation' from the Holy Spirit does not contradict what the Spirit has already inspired in the bible.

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As predicted...Drippy dipping into his Apologetic Shitbag of Silly Excuses for Why The Bible is Right.

Any time the Bible is wrong about something it becomes a master code book that only the most spiritually enlightened are privileged enough to understand.

Or it's just a book written in a different language, from a different time. Which means context and sometimes a word search is needed for proper exegesis of a given passage. This is nothing new Anyone who speaks anything other than Latin based language can tell you the same. This practice is not just reserved for the bible.

Remember the bible did not originate in the king James English.

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The fact is, Jesus told his followers, as well as rulers and religious elders of the time, that he would return within their lifetime to fullfill the events of the endtimes.

In accordance with that, most of the New Testament writers wrote as if the end was imminently near. Apparently, they weren't as spiritually as today's Christians, who have access to the super decoder.

Actually he did not. He said he would return before these wicked people/nation or nationality of people were wiped off of the face of the earth. Again as I and the strongs lexicon and concordance pointed out the word for generation is the same word for a given group of people/race of people.

In short Christ promised to return before the Jews were wiped out. As they are still (miraculously) here (as no people has ever survived without a nation) Christ's prophesy still stands.

[Minimalist]

It only does not make sense because you will not compromise on your ideas of the character of the very same God you say does not exist.

Wrong, Drippy. We take the ideas that you fuckers come up with and throw them back in your faces. And apparently you don't like the taste.