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Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
#1
Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
I'm copying and posting from by website I'm too new to link to Smile

The gospels, even though they are copying material from one another, contradict each other on many points. The “Sermon on the Mount” is a good example of this in that right out of the gate we have a contradiction in the story which leads to many between the versions of the sermon.

The Sermon on the Mount is not contained in Mark, the first gospel written, or in John, probably the last. The only gospels we have to compare side by side are Mathew and Luke.

There are two theories that serious academics consider to explain the common material between the two authors. The most commonly accepted is the Q hypothesis. That is the hypothesis that Mathew and Luke both copy from Mark and INDEPENDENTLY copy from a lost source now called Q (short for the German “Quelle” or “Source.) Gotta love the German contribution to theology and biblical studies.

The second hypothesis that should be taken into account is that the material between the “Mathean” and “Lukan” narratives are similar because one is copying from the other just as they are both copying from Mark. Proponents of this view usually think it is Luke that is copying from Mathew.

We need not indulge too many specifics in the debate on the nature of the literary relationship. It is clear that there is a literary relationship between the accounts.

And yet, from the outset, they contradict each other on what sort of geography Jesus preached his epic sermon. Mathew says it was on a mount, Luke says it was in a plain. (Mathew 5:1-2 and Luke 6:17-20.)

We can reconstruct why whoever wrote the gospel we call Mathew would place Jesus on a mount. Conservative or liberal, scholars agree that Mathew is the most Jewish gospel. Placing Jesus on this mount makes Jesus look like Moses delivering the law from a mount. The message is clear: Jesus is now what Moses was then.

Now, there are a few possibilities on why they contradict each other on this point.

The Q material could have originally said “plain” and Mathew is Judaizing the text.
The Q material could have originally said “mount” and Luke is de-Judaizing the text.
Luke is copying Mathew and de-judaizing the text.
Mathew is copying Luke and is de-judaizing the text.
The Q material contains sayings but does not ascribe a location so the authors make one up.

There may be more, but these are the main ones that come to me this moment, with some of course being more likely than others. Any way you slice it, what people commonly refer to as the “Sermon on the Mount” should be the “Sermon on the ?”
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#2
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
Here's novel theory. Maybe the "Q" material is found in luke 6:12. Where it says "Jesus when up upon a mountain to pray, there He calls to his followers and chose twelve." Now at verse 17 it say Jesus was on his way DOWN FROM THAT MOUNTAIN, withy the twelve apstoles in tow, and a large crowd gathered, so he stood on a flat place and began to teach.

It funny how you were so eager to disprove the bible that you were willing to read and swallow the first thing that sound semi reasonable, yet not willing to read enough of the bible to see if what was said was even remotely true. the vast majority of the supposed 'contradictions' are passages taken out of context, just like this one.
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#3
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
(August 30, 2013 at 4:43 am)findingdoubt Wrote: I'm copying and posting from by website I'm too new to link to Smile

I'm pretty sure that's still against the rules? Thanks for pointing it out.
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#4
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Luke 6:17 He went down with them and stood on a level place.

Matthew 5:1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down.

Luke explains that Jesus went to the mountainside to pray, then came down and the crowds gathered. Matthew claims that Jesus saw the crowd gathering, and "went up on a mountainside" to address them. I don't think it's as contradictory as it might initially seem. I doubt that the writer is implying that Jesus, upon seeing a crowd gather to hear him speak, decided the best place to do so was from 1,500 feet above them. He probably went up a few yards to higher ground. So it's possible that he went up the mountainside to pray and came down to select his apostles. Having heard that he was there, a crowd gathered. Upon seeing them, Jesus went back up the mountainside a short distance to address them. Maybe Matthew exaggerated, maybe he used different words and those were changed or corrupted during the centuries of copying and re-copying. But it isn't a make or break deal, IMO.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#5
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
Quote:The gospels, even though they are copying material from one another, contradict each other on many points.


That's because they were written for different audiences. Whoever wrote them...and it assuredly was not the people who had their names attached... never considered that people like Drippy would come along and try to "reconcile" them.
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#6
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
(August 30, 2013 at 9:19 am)Napoléon Wrote:
(August 30, 2013 at 4:43 am)findingdoubt Wrote: I'm copying and posting from by website I'm too new to link to Smile

I'm pretty sure that's still against the rules? Thanks for pointing it out.

Oh nooo
My bad.

Drich and Tonus. I think the contradiction is clear. Did the sermon occur on a mount or a plain? It's clear these things are different.

(August 30, 2013 at 3:02 pm)Tonus Wrote: Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Luke 6:17 He went down with them and stood on a level place.

Matthew 5:1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down.

Luke explains that Jesus went to the mountainside to pray, then came down and the crowds gathered. Matthew claims that Jesus saw the crowd gathering, and "went up on a mountainside" to address them. I don't think it's as contradictory as it might initially seem. I doubt that the writer is implying that Jesus, upon seeing a crowd gather to hear him speak, decided the best place to do so was from 1,500 feet above them. He probably went up a few yards to higher ground. So it's possible that he went up the mountainside to pray and came down to select his apostles. Having heard that he was there, a crowd gathered. Upon seeing them, Jesus went back up the mountainside a short distance to address them. Maybe Matthew exaggerated, maybe he used different words and those were changed or corrupted during the centuries of copying and re-copying. But it isn't a make or break deal, IMO.

I think its a very basic question. Both give a place where Jesus stood to preach. One says mount, other says plain.

Its a plain contradiction.
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#7
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
Newsflash Drich and Tonus: the two events are mutually exclusive. Either Jesus preached on the plain or he preached sitting down on higher ground. Such a difference is enough to question the authors' sources.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#8
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
Quote:Did the sermon occur on a mount or a plain? It's clear these things are different.

Seems to have been a small hill.



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#9
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
(August 30, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Newsflash Drich and Tonus: the two events are mutually exclusive. Either Jesus preached on the plain or he preached sitting down on higher ground. Such a difference is enough to question the authors' sources.
Why can't he do both? A good speech is worth repeating.
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#10
RE: Gospel Contradictions: Sermon on the ?
(August 30, 2013 at 9:23 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(August 30, 2013 at 8:54 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Newsflash Drich and Tonus: the two events are mutually exclusive. Either Jesus preached on the plain or he preached sitting down on higher ground. Such a difference is enough to question the authors' sources.
Why can't he do both? A good speech is worth repeating.

Sure, I mean there could be an endless permutation of possibilities; "Matthew" was there for the first one, got bored, went home just as "Luke" was rocking up for the second run through of the speech. Maybe vice versa. Maybe the event was actually over two days and Jesus on the second day realised getting up on higher ground was more convenient. Maybe he realised this on the first day and for the second speech got up on higher ground. But then again, none of it matters, because that's what faith is for right Wink
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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