Why does god want to cut off women's hands?

[John V]

Criminals broke a pre-agreed upon code of ethics; their objections to their punishment don't factor into it.

They didn’t agree to it. They were born into it.

They broke the law, the deterrent must be carried out if it's to have any weight.

Are you OK with debt slavery then? In that case you actually can argue that they agreed to it by taking on debt.

You might have a point with the poor if we were talking about a communist state, but we're not, generally speaking; accumulation of wealth falls under one's freedom to succeed or not at their own will, though I'd point out that we do recognize the inherent disparity of the social lottery, and redress it with certain government programs, somewhat.

Again you show your position to be ad hoc. You’re OK with suffering and death in the human group, just so long as slavery isn’t involved.

Hey, I'm sorry, this is a complex issue that you seem intent on not understanding. And I have laid it all out there; your continued attempts to cut it into smaller pieces without dealing with the whole is what's causing any confusion here.

It’s common to analyze complex topics in pieces. Your complaint is unreasonable.

Part of these determinations are external stimuli; we know what we like, and what hurts us, and it's objectively good to avoid the latter while allowing the former within reason. Part of these determinations are down to empathy and altruism; we do good and try to be equitable because there's an understanding that those memes are helpful to our species, since we can accomplish more by cooperating. Part is down to a weighing up of costs and benefits, as one would expect from a rational society.

So, you can break it into parts…I’ve addressed the parts separately…but my arguments don’t count because they address the parts separately. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

There are other considerations, but I don't want to be writing a book, here. We can start with very simple basics, and build up a more complex system from those.

But then you’ll whine that I’m not addressing the whole.

It's just demonstrable fact; we've learned as we've gone, we've created a system that is, at the very least, much improved from days past.

Again, improved implies an objectively correct end state which hasn’t been shown to exist.

Incidentally, how do you think these things are determined? After all, if you're arguing you must believe in some other way, no? It's hard to address you without knowing your position.

I’ve stated my position – certain aspects of the law were made as concessions, not ideals, and slavery is likely one of them as demonstrated by parts of Paul’s letters.

Yes, and consenting to be a slave is something different; of course you can be happy in a situation you've chosen to be happy in. My concern is with those that have not chosen to be slaves, who would like to be something else but can't; recent history is rife with examples of this. If one wishes to be happy as a slave then fine, but the caveat I would want on this process is that if that happiness changes, then that person is free to leave; the issue with slavery is the robbery of free choice, in that it amounts to kidnapping.

I’ve previously shown that you haven’t established free choice as a right. That’s your opinion.

Again, this is called learning.

Again, this is called change.

I'm saying that giving them a wife to coerce them into volunteering isn't much of a choice.

Why not?

Some of them might have been happy, but I doubt all of them were. Given those rules on how to beat them, I'd suggest that many weren't fans.

See, you can talk in probabilities even though you don’t know for sure. If you had been born into a slave-owning family and society, do you think it more likely that you’d approve of slavery, or be against it?

Look, could I seriously get a position on these things from you so that an actual discussion can take place? I'm getting kind of tired of having to take shots in the dark as to where you're coming from, here.

See above. My position is simple and has been out there a long time.