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John the Baptist
#21
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm)John V Wrote: Herodias took upon her to confound the laws of our country, and divorced herself from her husband while he was alive, and was married to Herod Antipas

This is the line by apologists to shoe-horn the dates back before 30 CE. I've already mentioned the problems:

1. 27 CE is too soon for JtB's arrest because he didn't even start his ministry until 28 CE at the earliest.

2. So Philip just let it all go without incident? Is there any mention of him divorcing his wife in history outside this wikipedia article? Mind you, women, having very limited rights at that time, couldn't divorce their husbands. It had to be the other way around. Philip was a powerful man himself and his share of Judea was actually larger than Antipas'.

3. A Jesus that started his ministry circa 30 CE would have been too young to be "about 30". Luke places his birth during the reign of Quirinius, governor of Syria, which didn't start until 6 CE.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#22
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:29 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Um....

Mark 1

Quote:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted[g] by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
And? It says that after John was put in prison, Jesus went to Galilee and preached. It says nothing about this being the absolute beginning in of his ministry.
Quote:Matty 4

Quote:12 When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he withdrew to Galilee. 13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— 14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:

15 “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.”[f]

17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
This one's better due to the "began," but that could refer to the specific message referenced.
Quote:Only in Luke is the message unclear.
It's not clear in any of them.

(September 6, 2013 at 1:43 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(September 6, 2013 at 1:17 pm)John V Wrote: Herodias took upon her to confound the laws of our country, and divorced herself from her husband while he was alive, and was married to Herod Antipas

This is the line by apologists to shoe-horn the dates back before 30 CE. I've already mentioned the problems:

1. 27 CE is too soon for JtB's arrest because he didn't even start his ministry until 28 CE at the earliest.

2. So Philip just let it all go without incident? Is there any mention of him divorcing his wife in history outside this wikipedia article? Mind you, women, having very limited rights at that time, couldn't divorce their husbands. It had to be the other way around. Philip was a powerful man himself and his share of Judea was actually larger than Antipas'.

3. A Jesus that started his ministry circa 30 CE would have been too young to be "about 30". Luke places his birth during the reign of Quirinius, governor of Syria, which didn't start until 6 CE.
Since when is Josephus a Christian apologist?
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#23
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Phillip - or Herod II - or Herod Phillip apparently all the same person, died without a son which would have meant that his "kingdom" would have reverted to direct Roman rule. The marriage between Antipas and Herodias was meant to forestall that and unite the two territories under Antipas. For whatever reason, it seemed to be Roman policy whenever they could get away with it to have a member of the Herodian family ruling in Palestine. This would have been a marriage of state and Tiberius' approval would have been required. Josephus recounts that Antipas duly sailed to Rome and obtained that approval. BTW, these people would have been pushing 60 in a time when 60 was an advanced age. The idea that this was some sort of passionate love match is ridiculous. Like many state marriages, this was about money and power.

I just thought of another problem with the "it happened while Philip was alive around 27 CE" argument.

The estranged wife of Antipas ran to her father Aratas when she learned of Antipas' plans, before the divorce was even official. To believe it all happened in the late 20s would mean it took 10 years for her father to get around to doing anything about it. This seems highly unlikely to say the least.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#24
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:47 pm)John V Wrote: It's not clear in any of them.

Re-read my response. Are you prepared to claim:

1. There were two baptisms by John the Baptist
2. That there were two times that Jesus drew Andrew and Peter into discipleship.
3. That there were two temple cleansings

Quote:Since when is Josephus a Christian apologist?

I'm not question Josephus. I'm questioning Wikipedia.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#25
RE: John the Baptist
Quote:Is it possible that JtB was arrested after the death of Philip but BEFORE Aratas' invasion?


Anything is possible but Lucius Pomponius Flaccus' term as governor ended in 35 so it is not as if there was a power vacuum. To suggest that Aretas was timing his attack for the transfer of power is interesting but there is no evidence of it.

Aretas had to know the end result of his attack. The Romans could not tolerate an attack upon an ally. It must also be understood that Antipas had entered into a state marriage with a Nabatean princess as well. In addition to everything else such marriages were used to seal alliances and trade agreements so the repudiation of the marriage should have been seen quite properly by Aretas as a rejection of him and his nation. He may have assumed that Antipas was preparing to attack him and tried to strike first. That sort of "balls-first" approach makes more sense than to think that there was any sort of reasoned approach to attacking Antipas. That was not going to turn out well and the only thing that saved Aretas' ass was that Tiberius died and Vitellius decided to wait for new orders. in 39, as a matter of fact, Caligula gave Phillip's old territories to his boyhood friend, Herod Agrippa I, and by 41 he had basically regained Herod the Great's entire realm which hints at Vitellius' political acumen for realizing that Rome did not give a shit about Judaea and his job was to keep an eye on the Parthians.

Quote:It's not clear in any of them.

Time to take off the holy blinders.
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#26
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:54 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Re-read my response. Are you prepared to claim:

1. There were two baptisms by John the Baptist
2. That there were two times that Jesus drew Andrew and Peter into discipleship.
3. That there were two temple cleansings

I'm not question Josephus. I'm questioning Wikipedia.
As noted, I haven't studied this before and so no, I'm not prepared to take any positions. I just put up the Josephus quote for informational purposes. As noted, I also take wiki with a grain of salt, but I take nameless atheists on the internet with even more salt. Wink
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#27
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 2:16 pm)John V Wrote: As noted, I haven't studied this before and so no, I'm not prepared to take any positions.

OK, then you need to ditch the whole "earlier part of the ministry" explanation to reconcile John with the Synoptics.

The very word "Synoptic" (similar) is a giveaway that Christian scholars acknowledge that John sits oddly alongside the others. I recommend you just bite the bullet and accept the problem.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#28
RE: John the Baptist
Then just read your own books to see how silly they are.
Reply
#29
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 2:31 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: OK, then you need to ditch the whole "earlier part of the ministry" explanation to reconcile John with the Synoptics.
I'm just putting it out there for consideration.
Quote:The very word "Synoptic" (similar) is a giveaway that Christian scholars acknowledge that John sits oddly alongside the others. I recommend you just bite the bullet and accept the problem.
I'm sure you do.
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#30
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 2:51 pm)John V Wrote: I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

Considered. Debunked. Not defended. Off the table. Next?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply



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