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John the Baptist
#31
RE: John the Baptist
It's right up there with Quirinius' "second" governorship.

They are utterly shameless when it comes to twisting their scrotums into knots to try to make excuses for why their bullshit does not match reality.
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#32
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's right up there with Quirinius' "second" governorship.

They are utterly shameless when it comes to twisting their scrotums into knots to try to make excuses for why their bullshit does not match reality.

"Maybe Quirinius had an earlier governorship?"

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened."

No, Rome never allowed a governor to serve twice in one province. It would allow a governor to get too much power over that province.

"Maybe they made an exception for Quirinius."

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened."

Look, we know where Quirinius was at that time. He was governor of a province in the middle of modern day Turkey.

"Maybe they called him in to help Herod the Great with the census."

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened."

Look, in the first place, Luke says he was governor (hegemon) or ruler of Syria...

"Maybe Luke meant that Quirinius was effectively running things, having been called in to help with the census."

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened."

Luke calls him "hegemon" (ruler) of Syria because he's helping with the census?

"It coulda happened"

...and in the second place, Judea was a client state of Rome at that time, not subject to direct taxation or census. They paid tribute.

"Maybe Rome wanted the census taken in the client state. Herod would have had to comply."

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened"

Look, John the Baptist didn't even get started until at earliest 28 CE. The census at that time, according to apologists, was 9 BCE. Jesus would have been too damn old to be "about 30".

"Maybe Herod dragged his heals and drew it out until 6 BC"

What do you base that on?

"It coulda happened."

[Repeat as necessary until all contrary evidence is dismissed by stuff pulled out of Christian butts everywhere]

For more on the application of the ad hoc hypothesis fallacy, see...



Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#33
RE: John the Baptist
And people wonder why I think they are all as dumb as rocks.
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#34
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 1:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Well, if you're going to invoke this argument from ignorance, that Jesus had an entire ministry that the Synoptics chose to omit for some reason, then you also need to be prepared to claim that:

1. There were two baptisms by John the Baptist
Why is that?
Quote:2. That there were two times that Jesus drew Andrew and Peter into discipleship.
Neither of the John passages quoted show Jesus drawing Andrew and Peter into discipleship. You're reading that into those passages.
Quote:3. That there were two temple cleansings*
Doesn't bother me.
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#35
RE: John the Baptist
Case in point!
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#36
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 6:12 pm)John V Wrote: Why is that?
Because both the Synoptic ministry and the extra-before-that-ministry in John both started with JtB witnessing Jesus as the chosen one with the whole booming voice from above.

Let me map it out for you in case you're having trouble following:

You assert (sort of) that Jesus had a ministry prior to JtB being thrown into prison. So the order of events would be:

1. John's Gospel version of Jesus' meeting with JtB.
2. Extra bit of ministry not reported in the Synoptics.
3. Jesus gets baptized per Synoptic Gospel accounts.
4. JtB is put into prison.

Clear?

Quote:Neither of the John passages quoted show Jesus drawing Andrew and Peter into discipleship. You're reading that into those passages.

Um, no, I'm reading what's clearly there. In the latter part of John chapter 1 Jesus is gathering his disciples and saying "follow me".

Quote:John 1:40-42:
One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas*, which is by interpretation, A stone.

...and then later...

Quote:John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.

So Jesus needs to gather his disciples twice. I'll leave it to you to figure out how that's possible.

Quote:Doesn't bother me.
Of course it doesn't.

Quick review of this ad hoc apology:

1. Naturally there's nothing to base the assertion on. There is no reference in the narration like "...as before...". There's no reaction from the merchants like "Oh no, not this nut again". There's no quote from Jesus like "I thought I told you..." You'd think two identical temple cleansing events would involve some reference to one another but no.

2. This was no road side chapel. The temple was a sprawling complex. For one man to run through the temple, single-handedly throwing out all the merchants was nothing less than a miracle. Even the strongest man in the world would be wrestled to the ground after overturning a few tables. Such a miracle if it happened once would be found in the history books. If it happened twice over the course of two full years (or three Passovers) it should have gotten some historian's attention. But Jesus' miracles, like all the supernatural events of the Old Testament, went unnoticed by everyone but the scribes of the Bible.

The simpler explanation is that it's a continuity gaffe.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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#37
RE: John the Baptist
Quote: You'd think two identical temple cleansing events would involve some reference to one another but no.

You'd think that even if the temple guards were asleep the first time the second time they would have stomped his holy ass.
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#38
RE: John the Baptist
Other cheeks weren't the only things this Jesus guy was turning.
[Image: 10314461_875206779161622_3907189760171701548_n.jpg]
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#39
RE: John the Baptist
(September 6, 2013 at 9:02 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Because both the Synoptic ministry and the extra-before-that-ministry in John both started with JtB witnessing Jesus as the chosen one with the whole booming voice from above.
Incorrect. In the synoptics, the booming voice is followed by fasting in the desert and temptation by Satan, then after some unspecified amount of time Jesus went to Galilee and preached there. No indication is given of the amount of time between the temptation and going to Galilee.

Matt 4
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him. 12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee.

Mark 1
13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him. 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Luke 4
13 Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time. 14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee

There's no language in any of these that precludes the accounts in John.
Quote:Let me map it out for you in case you're having trouble following:
You assert (sort of) that Jesus had a ministry prior to JtB being thrown into prison. So the order of events would be:

1. John's Gospel version of Jesus' meeting with JtB.
2. Extra bit of ministry not reported in the Synoptics.
3. Jesus gets baptized per Synoptic Gospel accounts.
4. JtB is put into prison.

Clear?
No. You need to reverse 2 & 3 for starters.

Quote:Um, no, I'm reading what's clearly there. In the latter part of John chapter 1 Jesus is gathering his disciples and saying "follow me".
In the latter part of John 1 Jesus says "follow me" specifically to Philip, which is probably why you mention it in your argument, but cut off the actual passage at v42.

John 1
43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John does not say that Jesus said "follow me" or otherwise called Peter and Andrew at this time. You're reading that into it without support. There is nothing in the gospels that precludes Jesus' having known Peter for some time before calling him to apostleship.
Quote:...and then later...

Quote:John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.

So Jesus needs to gather his disciples twice. I'll leave it to you to figure out how that's possible.
Oh, I see your confusion. Apostles are a subset of disciples. It's incorrect to conclude that disciples means apostles unless twelve or some other contextual clue is present.

Quote:Of course it doesn't.

Quick review of this ad hoc apology:

1. Naturally there's nothing to base the assertion on. There is no reference in the narration like "...as before...". There's no reaction from the merchants like "Oh no, not this nut again". There's no quote from Jesus like "I thought I told you..." You'd think two identical temple cleansing events would involve some reference to one another but no.
Long-winded argument from silence.
Quote:2. This was no road side chapel. The temple was a sprawling complex. For one man to run through the temple, single-handedly throwing out all the merchants was nothing less than a miracle. Even the strongest man in the world would be wrestled to the ground after overturning a few tables. Such a miracle if it happened once would be found in the history books. If it happened twice over the course of two full years (or three Passovers) it should have gotten some historian's attention. But Jesus' miracles, like all the supernatural events of the Old Testament, went unnoticed by everyone but the scribes of the Bible.
And another.
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#40
RE: John the Baptist
(September 7, 2013 at 2:23 pm)John V Wrote: Incorrect. In the synoptics, the booming voice is followed by fasting in the desert and temptation by Satan, then after some unspecified amount of time Jesus went to Galilee and preached there. No indication is given of the amount of time between the temptation and going to Galilee.
I read that as just another continuity gaffe that one would expect when a work of fiction of expanded upon by different authors.

Quote:No. You need to reverse 2 & 3 for starters.
Incorrect. JtB never baptizes Jesus in John's version of the Gospel.

Quote:Oh, I see your confusion. Apostles are a subset of disciples. It's incorrect to conclude that disciples means apostles unless twelve or some other contextual clue is present.
Red Herring fallacy. I said "discipleship".

Quote:Long-winded argument from silence.
...
And another.
As usual, Christian apologists overwork the Argument from Silence fallacy to cover for their own Argument from Ignorance and Bare Assertion fallacies.

Argument from Silence is only a fallacy in cases where it is plausible there might be no reports or evidence to be found. Otherwise, Argument from Ignorance would not be a fallacy.

Example:
Person A: "My house was broken into."
Person B: "I don't believe you because I've seen no reports of this in the news."
Argument from Silence fallacy. Mundane events might not make the news.

Person A: "My neighborhood was demolished by an alien fleet that is attacking Earth."
Person B: "I don't believe you because I've seen no reports of this in the news."
Not a fallacious application of Argument from Silence. An amazing event like this would get worldwide attention.

This is why it's reasonably to doubt that Jesus fed thousands with magically generated food, healed countless sick people, brought back the dead on two occasions and performed other public miracles in front of witnesses simply on the grounds that there's no historical record of any of these events outside Christian mythology.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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