Hey Minimalist

[Minimalist]

Right, Rayaan...cause I'm so fucking sensitive!

[A Theist]

You're obviously well versed in history and I came across something when re-reading Luke that I found a bit odd. ...and not just the part about Mary's 10 year pregnancy that I posted on earlier.

Luke 23:12 And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves.

So apparently the trial of Jesus brought them together. Is there anything from history that they had any enmity toward one other or that they later became friends?

Not that I'm questioning anything I read in Holey scripture, of course.

According to what's known of Pilate he was a vindictive and abrasive individual who had antagonized the Jews on a few occasions nearly causing an insurrection. He also offended the Jews again and was chastened by Tiberius when he placed gold coated shields dedicated to the Emperor in Herod's Palace. Evidently, there appears to have been some animosity there...

From Wikipedia...

Philo describes a later, similar incident in which Pilate was chastened by Emperor Tiberius after antagonizing the Jews by setting up gold-coated shields in Herod's Palace in Jerusalem. The shields were ostensibly to honor Tiberius, and this time did not contain engraved images. Philo writes that the shields were set up "not so much to honour Tiberius as to annoy the multitude." The Jews protested the installation of the shields at first to Pilate, and then, when he declined to remove them, by writing to Tiberius. Philo reports that upon reading the letters, Tiberius "wrote to Pilate with a host of reproaches and rebukes for his audacious violation of precedent and bade him at once take down the shields and have them transferred from the capital to Caesarea."[34]

Josephus recounts another incident in which Pilate spent money from the Temple to build an aqueduct. When Jews again protested his actions, Pilate had soldiers hidden in the crowd of Jews while addressing them. After giving the signal, Pilate's soldiers randomly attacked, beat, and killed scores of Jews to silence their petitions.[35]

In describing his personality, Philo writes that Pilate had "vindictiveness and furious temper", and was "naturally inflexible, a blend of self-will and relentlessness". He writes that Pilate feared a delegation that the Jews might send to Tiberius protesting the gold-coated shields, because "if they actually sent an embassy they would also expose the rest of his conduct as governor by stating in full the briberies, the insults, the robberies, the outrages and wanton injuries, the executions without trial constantly repeated, the ceaseless and supremely grievous cruelty".[34]

[Minimalist]

According to what's known of Pilate he was a vindictive and abrasive individual who had antagonized the Jews on a few occasions nearly causing an insurrection.

For once in your life you make a good point. Both Philo and Josephus consider Pilate to be an arrogant bastard. A far cry from the hand-wringing, hand-washing, "why-are-you-making-me-do-this" pussy of the gospels.

[DeistPaladin]

For once in your life you make a good point. Both Philo and Josephus consider Pilate to be an arrogant bastard. A far cry from the hand-wringing, hand-washing, "why-are-you-making-me-do-this" pussy of the gospels.

Additionally, I'd point out that the Herodian family was hardly an orthodox Jewish family. They were quite a far cry from the Maccabeean rulers and had credibility problems with their own population, or at least with the priesthood who would prefer a more pious set of rulers. The Herodians were on very good terms with the Romans, or at least politically savvy enough to pretend to be. I'd like to see some sort of evidence that the Herodian family disliked Pilate aside from the possible motive that Pilate was a brutal Roman ruler and kind of an asshole.

[Minimalist]

Herod the Great and certainly Antipas were great builders. Being a great builder means that you employ a lot of people and having jobs and money makes them happy. This makes the king less reliant on the nobility and the nobility hates that shit.

For all the shrieking about what a prick Herod was there were no popular revolts against him....but the fucking upper classes were always plotting. Just a historical curiosity.

[A Theist]

According to what's known of Pilate he was a vindictive and abrasive individual who had antagonized the Jews on a few occasions nearly causing an insurrection.

For once in your life you make a good point. Both Philo and Josephus consider Pilate to be an arrogant bastard. A far cry from the hand-wringing, hand-washing, "why-are-you-making-me-do-this" pussy of the gospels.

Yup. Both Philo and Josephus wrote of Pilate that way. He was also portrayed as an individual who had no love for the Jews and even less patience for their religious customs. Some of his abrasiveness did in fact show up in the Gospels...The exchange between Jesus and Pilate in John 18:33-35...and also Pilate's exchange with the Jews when they objected to the title on the cross, "Jesus Of Nazareth King Of The Jews" in John 19:19-22. Pilate had already been called to Rome for a "dressing down" for nearly causing an insurrection after offending the Jews, then was reproached by Tiberius on another occasion. Additionally the Jews were constantly writing letters to Rome complaining about Pilate. So I think rather than facing any more trouble from Rome Pilate may have thought it best for himself to appease the Jews in the matter of Jesus and avoid a possible insurrection.

[Minimalist]

Or, more likely, none of it ever happened.

[A Theist]

For once in your life you make a good point. Both Philo and Josephus consider Pilate to be an arrogant bastard. A far cry from the hand-wringing, hand-washing, "why-are-you-making-me-do-this" pussy of the gospels.

Additionally, I'd point out that the Herodian family was hardly an orthodox Jewish family. They were quite a far cry from the Maccabeean rulers and had credibility problems with their own population, or at least with the priesthood who would prefer a more pious set of rulers. The Herodians were on very good terms with the Romans, or at least politically savvy enough to pretend to be. I'd like to see some sort of evidence that the Herodian family disliked Pilate aside from the possible motive that Pilate was a brutal Roman ruler and kind of an asshole.

It's true that the Herodian family was on good terms with the Romans. It's also true that they were hardly pious orthodox Jews. But that doesn't mean Herod was on good terms with Pilate. It was to Herod's benefit that he maintain the peace with Rome but it was probably no easy task when Pilate was continually antagonizing the Jews to near insurrection. Rome also had their issues with Pilate as well. So I can see where there could have been animosity between Herod and Pilate. It certainly seems that there was animosity between the Roman Emperor, Tiberius and Pilate.

[Minimalist]

But that doesn't mean Herod was on good terms with Pilate.

Antipas. Herod the Great was long dead by the time Pilate got to Judaea.

Again, Josephus was a member of a priestly family which means he was one of the nobility. I'll bet the priests had their knickers in a twist about the temple treasure being used to bring water to the city but what did the commons think? Recall that Tacitus recounts Roman rule of Judaea in this period in The Histories with a single sentence.

Under Tiberius all was quiet.

Book V, 9

Apparently, they were fine with it.

[A Theist]

But that doesn't mean Herod was on good terms with Pilate.

Antipas. Herod the Great was long dead by the time Pilate got to Judaea.

Again, Josephus was a member of a priestly family which means he was one of the nobility. I'll bet the priests had their knickers in a twist about the temple treasure being used to bring water to the city but what did the commons think? Recall that Tacitus recounts Roman rule of Judaea in this period in The Histories with a single sentence.

Under Tiberius all was quiet.

Book V, 9

Apparently, they were fine with it.

Antipas. Herod the Great was long dead by the time Pilate got to Judaea.

Yes. Antipas is who I meant. He's the one who divorced his wife and then married his brother's wife, Herodias. According to the Gospel accounts, Herod Antipas had John the Baptist executed when he condemned Herod's marriage to Herodius...Things were definitely prosperous under Tiberius which would probably account for his quiet reign as Emperor...and I think I would have to agree that they were fine with it as long as they had a certain amount of liberties and had enough food and drink....I don't think the Romans were the brutal rulers as some writers contemporary to the times have portrayed them, until they were crossed. The Romans certainly weren't as brutal as the Assyrians or the Babylonians. Wasn't Josephus a Roman collaborator and propagandist? I thought I read that somewhere.