"You may say I'm a dreamer..."

[JoeSzymborski27]

But I KNOW I'm not the only one. I realize quoting a rather cliché anthem may not be the best lead in, but I thought it fit.

My name is Joe, and I am a 21 year old living in California. For over 4 years I have been on what started as a spiritual journey, and has come to be the beginning of a wild passion for truth, wisdom and peace. I try not to bore you with lengthly anecdotes, but let me give you a few details. As a young teenager growing up in a heavily Christian town, I felt incredibly awkward in my attempts to assimilate God into my life. Prayer seemed useless, fellowship (in the form of spreading the good word) was out of the question, and everything which my friends and family claimed to be miracles were clearly just statistically improbable (yet altogether possible) coincidences at best. I felt there had to be something more to our existence.

Fast forward to my freshman year at a community college, and my first astronomy class. Boy was I hooked! What was once a curious black expanse above my head with little pin holes of light (always referred before this point to as "the heavens" by my peers) suddenly became a vivid, incredible vastness of infinite possibilities. I felt as though I could travel to deep space in my minds eye, and meet potentially real extra terrestrial life forms on distant planets while daydreaming between lectures. I finally had some more concrete and evidence based answers for how the universe really looks and works (even if some is still considered partly unsure, ei. Big Bang, quantum physics, etc.)

I could never go back after those first few classes. Long story short, my fascination with science continued until I discovered intellectual celebrities such as Carl Sagan, Professor Kaku, and Neil Degrasse Tyson, among others, who helped continue to shape my understanding of the known universe.

Since then I have constantly been searching for how the universe works, and perhaps, how it could work better. I'm talking of course more specifically about planet earth, and our obsession with dominance and consumerism. We are killing our planet, and for various silly reasons (fundamental religiosity in part), killing each other. We are coming to a point at which we understand the way the world works, and no longer require Bronze Age explanations for our Darwinian hopes and fears.

What I'm getting at is a desire for... A new type of thinking. A type of rational discourse with which to create a sense of hope, love, morality, charity, education and peace WITHOUT the requisite of a mutually exclusive deity or set of beliefs. Something which any open mind can adopt to help make the world a more equal planet.

You may call it secular humanism, and it may dip into a verity of already existing philosophies. In fact, I'm sure such a rationale is already in existence. But I want to ask you all what you think about such a cause.

Firstly, have you heard of something closely aligned with my agenda before? What might you label this philosophical suggestion as?

Do you have any tenants of other philosophies or perhaps your own unique philosophy which may be applicable?

Would you be willing to discuss with me at some length, and with an open mind, ideas by which such a dramatic mental paradigm shift might be popularized or refined?

With the American economy and political atmosphere in shambles, global warming continuing and natural resources depleting, fundamental religious fanatics still killing one another, and superficiality dominating the minds of many humans, the world is in need of some change. You may think such a utopian suggestion impossible or too fanciful, but may I allude that the Great Wall was not conceived without an idea and a dream, and not achieved without laying a few bricks first.

Thank you.

[Aractus]

, Joe!

You may be interested to know, that while you've gone on about your fascination with science driving you "away" from the Christian Church, at my church we have Ken Freeman, who's one of the most brilliant astrophysicists in Australia. He is the authority on dark matter in Australia, he is in a league of his own. Do you notice that nowhere on his Wikipedia page does it say that he's an Anglican and attends church with his wife every week? It also doesn't mention that around 15 of his PHD students have gone on to become chief advisors to world leaders.

[Captain Colostomy]

The Great Wall also contains the remains of thousands(hundreds of thousands?) of coerced laborers. Not a very enlightened example.

Man, screw putting a name on your philosophy, and just live it. Personal examples usually go over better than rhetoric.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Egalitarianism.

Welcome Joe

[JoeSzymborski27]

Thank you for your input thus far. Captain colostomy, I must admit that I am very young and naive in my specifically philosophical aspects of my search, and it was rather late at night. I was admitably reaching for an analogous rhetoric to serve my point, and quite obviously now, it was flawed. That will likely be the last time that I use that example to demonstrate my ideology.

Aractus, thank you for your input as well. I have heard such a stance before. As with the handful of the leading American scientists, 83% of them are atheist or strongly agnostic, which leaves 17% of them with a personal god Of sorts. While I can appreciate freedom of religion, within my own search I have found absolutely no place for especially the Christian Bible's depiction of a God. Which leads me to pose the difficult question, not why 83% of leading physicists and biologists are atheist, but why 17% aren't, including your Australian fellow's example?

Now without a detailed personal background and psychological evaluation I can only infer a few theories. But I consider it largely to be a remnant of social tendency/cultural tradition. I mean of course there is the rather tired idea that if the gentleman were a physicist reigning from India, yet were still a leading astrophysicist, he would be incredibly likely to believe a quite seperate creed (and I've witnessed many leaders in feilds of science to be spiritual Hindus).

Now I appreciate the attempted connection between science and faith, but a lengthly scientific resume and great track record for producing leaders and their advisors does nothing to prove the faith based creed itself. Quite honestly to me it demonstrates what is wrong with our way of thinking perfectly. I've seen in History many examples of revolutionary physicists who discovered groundbreaking results in the ways of early astrology, biology and the like who at the ends of their knowledge and scientific ability quite invariably chalked the rest of their unknown variables up to "an element of the heavens" or something like that, only to be followed up by the next most ambitious gentleman who completed more in the field without having to use god at all (but the cycles tends to repeat quite a bit).

This becomes a sort of God of the gaps conclusion. While we know an increasing amount about the clockwork of the universe, and continue to ask better and better questions, many of us still find it necessary and quite reasonable to allow an ideology which has long since been disproven a hundred times over to continue to propigate in even some of our most scientific and cultured geniuses. Now I am in no place of authority to infallibly conclude that there is no such thing as an unseen embodiment of universal consciousness, or a relativistic deity of some sort, I disown almost entirely the popular creeds of modern belief. They all make mutually exclusive, evidence lacking claims about the nature of the earth and heavens which for some reason even our most intelligent fellow men continue to accept.

This may not be the best example but especially in American culture, belief in God is nearly ubiquitous in big politics, and there have been only a handful of presidents who have varied from the belief in a Christian God, this doesn't prove anything about the Christian faith when looked at simply by track record.

And lastly, Fidel_Castronaut, thank you for your contribution. I shall look into that ideology.

[gall]

But I KNOW I'm not the only one. I realize quoting a rather cliché anthem may not be the best lead in, but I thought it fit.

My name is Joe, and I am a 21 year old living in California. For over 4 years I have been on what started as a spiritual journey, and has come to be the beginning of a wild passion for truth, wisdom and peace. I try not to bore you with lengthly anecdotes, but let me give you a few details. As a young teenager growing up in a heavily Christian town, I felt incredibly awkward in my attempts to assimilate God into my life. Prayer seemed useless, fellowship (in the form of spreading the good word) was out of the question, and everything which my friends and family claimed to be miracles were clearly just statistically improbable (yet altogether possible) coincidences at best. I felt there had to be something more to our existence.

Fast forward to my freshman year at a community college, and my first astronomy class. Boy was I hooked! What was once a curious black expanse above my head with little pin holes of light (always referred before this point to as "the heavens" by my peers) suddenly became a vivid, incredible vastness of infinite possibilities. I felt as though I could travel to deep space in my minds eye, and meet potentially real extra terrestrial life forms on distant planets while daydreaming between lectures. I finally had some more concrete and evidence based answers for how the universe really looks and works (even if some is still considered partly unsure, ei. Big Bang, quantum physics, etc.)

I could never go back after those first few classes. Long story short, my fascination with science continued until I discovered intellectual celebrities such as Carl Sagan, Professor Kaku, and Neil Degrasse Tyson, among others, who helped continue to shape my understanding of the known universe.

Since then I have constantly been searching for how the universe works, and perhaps, how it could work better. I'm talking of course more specifically about planet earth, and our obsession with dominance and consumerism. We are killing our planet, and for various silly reasons (fundamental religiosity in part), killing each other. We are coming to a point at which we understand the way the world works, and no longer require Bronze Age explanations for our Darwinian hopes and fears.

What I'm getting at is a desire for... A new type of thinking. A type of rational discourse with which to create a sense of hope, love, morality, charity, education and peace WITHOUT the requisite of a mutually exclusive deity or set of beliefs. Something which any open mind can adopt to help make the world a more equal planet.

You may call it secular humanism, and it may dip into a verity of already existing philosophies. In fact, I'm sure such a rationale is already in existence. But I want to ask you all what you think about such a cause.

Firstly, have you heard of something closely aligned with my agenda before? What might you label this philosophical suggestion as?

Do you have any tenants of other philosophies or perhaps your own unique philosophy which may be applicable?

Would you be willing to discuss with me at some length, and with an open mind, ideas by which such a dramatic mental paradigm shift might be popularized or refined?

With the American economy and political atmosphere in shambles, global warming continuing and natural resources depleting, fundamental religious fanatics still killing one another, and superficiality dominating the minds of many humans, the world is in need of some change. You may think such a utopian suggestion impossible or too fanciful, but may I allude that the Great Wall was not conceived without an idea and a dream, and not achieved without laying a few bricks first.

Thank you.

Hate to break this to you but utopia is the same as distopia...

In either there is always a group that does not agree and is left out or persecuted more than others.

There is NO perfect world in which peace and harmony will always exist.

Rather than even waste time with that sort of dream why not dream of a place that we can all get along in that doesn't require we conform to a one specific set of utopian or dystopian ideals.

The books 1984, and A brave New World tell the same story in two different ways. One could be considered utopia the other dystopia. I would not want to live in either of those worlds.

I know this is not a popular view but this is how I see it. Neither of these things can yield growth for the human race. Both are just systems of control disguised as something else.

[JoeSzymborski27]

But I KNOW I'm not the only one. I realize quoting a rather cliché anthem may not be the best lead in, but I thought it fit.

My name is Joe, and I am a 21 year old living in California. For over 4 years I have been on what started as a spiritual journey, and has come to be the beginning of a wild passion for truth, wisdom and peace. I try not to bore you with lengthly anecdotes, but let me give you a few details. As a young teenager growing up in a heavily Christian town, I felt incredibly awkward in my attempts to assimilate God into my life. Prayer seemed useless, fellowship (in the form of spreading the good word) was out of the question, and everything which my friends and family claimed to be miracles were clearly just statistically improbable (yet altogether possible) coincidences at best. I felt there had to be something more to our existence.

Fast forward to my freshman year at a community college, and my first astronomy class. Boy was I hooked! What was once a curious black expanse above my head with little pin holes of light (always referred before this point to as "the heavens" by my peers) suddenly became a vivid, incredible vastness of infinite possibilities. I felt as though I could travel to deep space in my minds eye, and meet potentially real extra terrestrial life forms on distant planets while daydreaming between lectures. I finally had some more concrete and evidence based answers for how the universe really looks and works (even if some is still considered partly unsure, ei. Big Bang, quantum physics, etc.)

I could never go back after those first few classes. Long story short, my fascination with science continued until I discovered intellectual celebrities such as Carl Sagan, Professor Kaku, and Neil Degrasse Tyson, among others, who helped continue to shape my understanding of the known universe.

Since then I have constantly been searching for how the universe works, and perhaps, how it could work better. I'm talking of course more specifically about planet earth, and our obsession with dominance and consumerism. We are killing our planet, and for various silly reasons (fundamental religiosity in part), killing each other. We are coming to a point at which we understand the way the world works, and no longer require Bronze Age explanations for our Darwinian hopes and fears.

What I'm getting at is a desire for... A new type of thinking. A type of rational discourse with which to create a sense of hope, love, morality, charity, education and peace WITHOUT the requisite of a mutually exclusive deity or set of beliefs. Something which any open mind can adopt to help make the world a more equal planet.

You may call it secular humanism, and it may dip into a verity of already existing philosophies. In fact, I'm sure such a rationale is already in existence. But I want to ask you all what you think about such a cause.

Firstly, have you heard of something closely aligned with my agenda before? What might you label this philosophical suggestion as?

Do you have any tenants of other philosophies or perhaps your own unique philosophy which may be applicable?

Would you be willing to discuss with me at some length, and with an open mind, ideas by which such a dramatic mental paradigm shift might be popularized or refined?

With the American economy and political atmosphere in shambles, global warming continuing and natural resources depleting, fundamental religious fanatics still killing one another, and superficiality dominating the minds of many humans, the world is in need of some change. You may think such a utopian suggestion impossible or too fanciful, but may I allude that the Great Wall was not conceived without an idea and a dream, and not achieved without laying a few bricks first.

Thank you.

Hate to break this to you but utopia is the same as distopia...

In either there is always a group that does not agree and is left out or persecuted more than others.

There is NO perfect world in which peace and harmony will always exist.

Rather than even waste time with that sort of dream why not dream of a place that we can all get along in that doesn't require we conform to a one specific set of utopian or dystopian ideals.

The books 1984, and A brave New World tell the same story in two different ways. One could be considered utopia the other dystopia. I would not want to live in either of those worlds.

I know this is not a popular view but this is how I see it. Neither of these things can yield growth for the human race. Both are just systems of control disguised as something else.

I may call it a utopian desire, but I'll admit that is perhaps an imperfect definition of my intention. I understand that, especially within my own lifetime, I wouldn't expect even 1/4 of the population to accept even the most refined, educated, open minded and peaceful of ideologies, but I really do have a deep passion to try. Even I can just unlock the higher rationalities and cultivate a nature peace and love in just a handful of individuals, I would be satisfied, but only just barely.

Now whenever I talk about this type of thing I quite often get compared to 1984, or a verity of dictators, including most recently Hitler when I thoughtlessly mentioned that I wanted a "new world order" of sorts -- a scary image pops into people's head with ideas like that.

That's really nothing near what I'm after. I'm after gross national happiness, practical and at least somewhat comprehensive education, and a sense of hope and prosperity for all... I often get criticized for these desires require something of a passion for "radical reform". I am just simply dissatisfied with following the way the world tells me to go.

My biggest problem at this point (at least that I can find from self inspection) is a lack of deep wisdom, and a bit of social grace. I probably shouldn't call my desires utopian or a "new world order". I just recently began to interest myself in philosophy. I've just always noticed that in time, humanity always tends to do the right thing. Civil rights alone have made dramatic advancements in the last 500 years, quite obviously. Why shouldn't we be able to make at least significant advancements in education, peace, and prosperity in equal time???

Again, you may call me a dreamer, but perhaps I really "hope" I'm not the only one.

[Faith No More]

I think you're going about it the wrong way to try and unite people under a certain ideology. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Beyond the basics, human beings vary vastly in their needs and desires. Trying to find something that is acceptable and works for everyone isn't feasible, so the most we can do is to try and exist in harmony. Rather than unite under one ideology, it's more practical to weed out the destructive ones, and what I see the world needs is to try to help people form bonds over their commonalities, rather than fight over their differences.

[Angrboda]

I don't feel like typing a detailed response at the moment, but I have been engaged in a project of similar aim in recent years, though not particularly focused on that subject of late. I, however, conceive of the root cause of the problems you wish to address differently, and consequently view your approach as essentially useless. To my view, the matters in question are consequences of the specific way the human mind works, and as such, there are deep reasons why things are the way they are. To me, the cause is less 'what we think' than 'how we think', and so any solutions aimed at addressing questions of the content of human thinking is going to be ineffective and aiming at the wrong target.


Maybe I'll say more later. Or, maybe not.

[Minimalist]

I'd say worry less about labels and just live. One of my main complaints with theists is that they waste their lives trying to figure out "how" to live instead of just doing it.

Welcome.