Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[ronedee]

I'd like to focus on this one.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind answering a few questions so that I may have a full understanding of your belief without the risk of innacurately grouping you into a stereotype. Fair?

You believe that you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and you believe he speaks to you, no?

You believe him to be the son of God, and the one true path to salvation?

Your allegence to Christ and your compliance to His Father's will surpasses all worldy committment?

Well, I don't know exactly what you are driving at...

But, yes I do believe He is the true path to God. Also, in life decisions Jesus does surpass any worldly committment. As I said He is the standard of excellence in life. I don't think anyone could deny that. Believers, or not.

I, as other Christians live and die daily by Jesus' teachings. Meaning that we are not perfect by any means. But we "try" to instill something worthy of Him with every situation.

All that said, I, personally have had life changing events happen to me that has strengthened my faith. So, I am not foolish to think that everyone has had the benefit of the unexplained, explained to them.

But, to share these experiences is worthless. Each of us has their own path. To God, or away from Him. Thank you for your questions.

[The Reality Salesman01]

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I'd like to focus on this one.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind answering a few questions so that I may have a full understanding of your belief without the risk of innacurately grouping you into a stereotype. Fair?

You believe that you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and you believe he speaks to you, no?

You believe him to be the son of God, and the one true path to salvation?

Your allegence to Christ and your compliance to His Father's will surpasses all worldy committment?

---

[ronedee]

I’ve always enjoyed how Jesus dove tails Socrates as portrayed by Plato in his works. He's almost the same character as Jesus right up to the death that he welcomes with open arms, it’s uncanny. And, it was written 400 years before Jesus was said to be born, fascinating stuff really. Either way, you and I have common ground here. Our standard for good is the same. Where we differ is where Socrates and Jesus begin to walk separate paths. Have you read The Apology? It's fantastic, and only about 30 pages. I recommend downloading the PDF online for free if you haven't. But, I digress...

I will read The Apology! Thank you!

I do still have one question that needs answered. I’m only trying to make sure I have a good grasp of what you’re saying. I think it’s better than pretending to know what you believe. Wouldn’t you agree?

Do you believe that God speaks to you? It seems as though you believe that God tells you things, and you believe with absolute certainty that it’s God. Correct?

Yes, on both counts.

It’s not necessary that you tell me the exact things you’ve interpreted as being God intervening for me to understand your perspective. I need only to understand the level of certainty to which you assign to it in fact being God.

I myself assign high levels of certainty to things I believe, so I can certainly relate to what it means to hold something as absolutely true. So if you would please specify how certain you are, I would be able to get an idea of the category of belief we are talking about.

Perhaps, 1-10? 1 being uncertain, and 10 being absolutely sure without a doubt.

Without a doubt 10. If I may...it can only be 10. At least for me.

I am genuinely interested in understanding your position. I intend to only ask questions, it is obviously up to you as to whether or not you choose to answer. My hope is that through your answers we may both understand something new. Your cooperation this far is graciously appreciated. I assure you that I do not intend on attacking you or putting words in your mouth.

And, I'm also interested in your perspective.... and the tough questions!

This is the best conversation I've had here in a long time! Thanks and Fire-away!

[The Reality Salesman01]

---

I’ve always enjoyed how Jesus dove tails Socrates as portrayed by Plato in his works. He's almost the same character as Jesus right up to the death that he welcomes with open arms, it’s uncanny. And, it was written 400 years before Jesus was said to be born, fascinating stuff really. Either way, you and I have common ground here. Our standard for good is the same. Where we differ is where Socrates and Jesus begin to walk separate paths. Have you read The Apology? It's fantastic, and only about 30 pages. I recommend downloading the PDF online for free if you haven't. But, I digress...

I will read The Apology! Thank you!

I do still have one question that needs answered. I’m only trying to make sure I have a good grasp of what you’re saying. I think it’s better than pretending to know what you believe. Wouldn’t you agree?

Do you believe that God speaks to you? It seems as though you believe that God tells you things, and you believe with absolute certainty that it’s God. Correct?

Yes, on both counts.

It’s not necessary that you tell me the exact things you’ve interpreted as being God intervening for me to understand your perspective. I need only to understand the level of certainty to which you assign to it in fact being God.

I myself assign high levels of certainty to things I believe, so I can certainly relate to what it means to hold something as absolutely true. So if you would please specify how certain you are, I would be able to get an idea of the category of belief we are talking about.

Perhaps, 1-10? 1 being uncertain, and 10 being absolutely sure without a doubt.

Without a doubt 10. If I may...it can only be 10. At least for me.

I am genuinely interested in understanding your position. I intend to only ask questions, it is obviously up to you as to whether or not you choose to answer. My hope is that through your answers we may both understand something new. Your cooperation this far is graciously appreciated. I assure you that I do not intend on attacking you or putting words in your mouth.

And, I'm also interested in your perspective.... and the tough questions!

This is the best conversation I've had here in a long time! Thanks and Fire-away!

---

I will read The Apology! Thank you!

Quite welcome.

I do still have one question that needs answered. I’m only trying to make sure I have a good grasp of what you’re saying. I think it’s better than pretending to know what you believe. Wouldn’t you agree?

Do you believe that God speaks to you? It seems as though you believe that God tells you things, and you believe with absolute certainty that it’s God. Correct?

Yes, on both counts.

Thank you.

Perhaps, 1-10? 1 being uncertain, and 10 being absolutely sure without a doubt.

Without a doubt 10. If I may...it can only be 10. At least for me.

Again, your candor is much appreciated. It’s easier to proceed when one is presenting such clear descriptions of their beliefs.

And, I'm also interested in your perspective.... and the tough questions!

Tough subjects tend to raise tough questions. I just want to reiterate that should I ask one that is too tough, you are not at all required to answer. I do not have the same perspective or knowledge on the matter of God as you clearly do. However, if you could somehow convey this knowledge, I am very eager to learn. It is my hope that you will be patient if something I say comes across as ignorant. When compared to a 10 on a certainty scale with regards to God, my knowledge is guaranteed to be nothing more than ignorance.

This is the best conversation I've had here in a long time! Thanks and Fire-away!

I am happy to hear that.

I’d like to start with a thought experiment. Hearing your answers to the conditions contained therein will provide me with an accurate understanding of the regard in which you hold your belief. I hope you’ll run with it with me. What do you say?

[ronedee]

I’d like to start with a thought experiment. Hearing your answers to the conditions contained therein will provide me with an accurate understanding of the regard in which you hold your belief. I hope you’ll run with it with me. What do you say?

Sure! Don't fret....I'm on board with most everything for questions.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I’d like to start with a thought experiment. Hearing your answers to the conditions contained therein will provide me with an accurate understanding of the regard in which you hold your belief. I hope you’ll run with it with me. What do you say?

Sure! Don't fret....I'm on board with most everything for questions.

Great! Bare with me, I have to step away for a bit, but I will be back later with the scenario. I've got to go pick up my son.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I’d like to start with a thought experiment. Hearing your answers to the conditions contained therein will provide me with an accurate understanding of the regard in which you hold your belief. I hope you’ll run with it with me. What do you say?

Sure! Don't fret....I'm on board with most everything for questions.

Ok, I'm back.

It is my understanding that if one hopes to go to heaven, at minimum, they are to discharge the will of God.

You have made it quite clear that you are absolutely certain that you hear the will of God spoken to you. Without a doubt I believe you said. Please correct any errors on my part if it appears as though I've misconstrued your posts. I haven't gone back to make sure, I'm going off of my best memory of your responses.

It has been told to me that God speaks to those who read The Bible. Sadly, I must admit that I share the same disappointment that Mother Teresa expresses in her diaries (released after her death by the Catholic Church) when I say that I have not heard God, or at least, if God was speaking, it was not recognizable to me. Nonetheless, I continue to read it. I find it interesting.

In Genesis, God tells Abraham to kill his son. Of course, before the knife is plunged into his son's chest, God intervenes. Our thought experiment is this:

Say God tells you to kill all left handed people. Just run with it. There's no doubt in your mind that its God telling you to do it. You feel it in your heart, you know it in your mind. It infuses every fiber of your being. On a scale of 1-10, it's a ten, just like your belief in Christ. In this scenario, God tells you to kill all left handed people. Would you do it? Would you kill all left handed people?

I'd understand if you didn't want to answer, but I think its a fair question, and it will really give me some insight to your views.

[ronedee]

Ok, I'm back.

It is my understanding that if one hopes to go to heaven, at minimum, it is to discharge the will of God.

You have made it quite clear that you are absolutely certain that you hear the will of God spoken to you. Without a doubt I believe you said. Please correct any errors on my part if it appears as though I've misconstrued your posts. I haven't gone back to make sure, I'm going off of my best memory of your responses.

It has been told to me that God speaks to those who read The Bible. Sadly, I must admit that I share the same disappointment that Mother Teresa expresses in her diaries (released after her death by the Catholic Church) when I say that I have not heard God, or at least, if God was speaking, it was not recognizable to me. Nonetheless, I continue to read it. I find it interesting.

In Genesis, God tells Abraham to kill his son. Of course, before the knife is plunged into his son's chest, God intervenes. Our thought experiment is this:

Say God tells you to kill all left handed people. Just run with it. There's no doubt in your mind that its God telling you to do it. You feel it in your heart, you know it in your mind. It infuses every fiber of your being. On a scale of 1-10, it's a ten, just like your belief in Christ. In this scenario, God tells you to kill all left handed people. Would you do it? Would you kill all left handed people?

I'd understand if you didn't want to answer, but I think its a fair question, and it will really give me some insight to your views.

I've been asked this question here.

My answer is the same. No. And what I would say to God, is that I'm adhering to His 7th commandment. Thou Shall Not Kill. Not to mention: Love Thy Neighbor...and Love Each Other As I Have Loved You."

But, God doesn't talk to me in the ways men typically think He would.

And this is the major crux of the problem for all people... in general.

The path to Him needs to be open and unobstructed. That is no easy task! Even if you've been there. Think of the Holy Spirit (Teacher and Conduit) as a scared Dove, that is freightened off in the most subtle of manners and movements.

There is key to opening the door to God. But no one uses it.

[freedomfromforum]

There is key to opening the door to God. But no one uses it.

Are you speaking of child-like faith? What is this 'key'?

[The Reality Salesman01]

My answer is the same. No. And what I would say to God, is that I'm adhering to His 7th commandment. Thou Shall Not Kill. Not to mention: Love Thy Neighbor...and Love Each Other As I Have Loved You."

Interesting. Thanks for playing along. Keep in mind the conditions of our thought experiment. While I appreciate your honesty in your description of the type of communication you have with God, I'm sure I'll get no argument from you when I point out that The Bible, and Christians all over the world often tell of a more direct communication.

Assuming you're still game here, and willing to continue running with this-In this scenario, God is literally speaking to you, and is doing so with your unmistaken clarity. I'm sure you believe this to be a possible thing for God to do should he feel it necessary. I'll get back to it in a moment.

Before I forget, I am curious about something you said. You graciously acknowledged your role in the scenario, and you said that if you were certain that God was telling you to kill, you would tell him "No", and the reason you would offer God for defying him was that God told you not to? Are you saying that the two instructions could somehow be orders given by separate Gods?

Secondly, I found the defense you were prepared to give God should he take issue with you defiance puzzling. The 7th commandment. You wouldn't feel morally compelled not to comply with that order?

For example, following the outline given in the aforementioned scenario.Let's say you and I are sitting on a bench together, in the quad of a university campus. We both watch a young boy walk up and sign his name on something. We notice he uses his left hand. We're sure of it. So we follow him into his dorm building, and into the bathroom. And, let's say I go along with you because you seem sincere and I too want to carry out God's will. So we follow him to the bathroom. I smash him over the head with a fire extinguisher. He falls down. I give you a knife and tell you to slit his throat while he's down and I run to the door to be a lookout. You cut him open because you're following God's will. Now, you really mean to tell me while he bleeds out that the only thing you'd see wrong with that was that the 7th commandment said not to do that? What I mean is, the same God you believed wrote the 7th commandment had just given you an instruction that superseded the previous one. You don't think you'd feel the slightest bit of internal remorse for taking a kids life? Even if you were doing what you believed God told you to do?

Does God determine what's right?

Or, does God approve of that which is right?



Even more simply put, Is something holy because God deems it so, or does God approve of that which is holy? I'm sure you've probably already considered the answer to this question. But, like I said, I don't have the answers to questions such as these. I must defer to you here. Thank you again for taking the time to discuss this with me. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.