Believing Vs Claiming to Believe

[Esquilax]

My answer is the same. No. And what I would say to God, is that I'm adhering to His 7th commandment. Thou Shall Not Kill. Not to mention: Love Thy Neighbor...and Love Each Other As I Have Loved You."

I find this confusing, given that there are other stories in the bible where god orders people to kill, and their obedience to that order is lauded as dedication to god. Abraham springs to mind (remember, before he was told to stop, he was still told to kill, and he did so.) How do you reconcile these two things?

But, God doesn't talk to me in the ways men typically think He would.

So how do these divine communiques reach you? It's really hard to get a straight answer from most christians, beyond that it's not a literal voice that they hear. It'd be really useful, going ahead, to have an understanding of how this guidance manifests.

[ronedee]

Interesting. Thanks for playing along. Keep in mind the conditions of our thought experiment. While I appreciate your honesty in your description of the type of communication you have with God, I'm sure I'll get no argument from you when I point out that The Bible, and Christians all over the world often tell of a more direct communication.

Assuming you're still game here, and willing to continue running with this-In this scenario, God is literally speaking to you, and is doing so with your unmistaken clarity. I'm sure you believe this to be a possible thing for God to do should he feel it necessary. I'll get back to it in a moment.

Before I forget, I am curious about something you said. You graciously acknowledged your role in the scenario, and you said that if you were certain that God was telling you to kill, you would tell him "No", and the reason you would offer God for defying him was that God told you not to? Are you saying that the two instructions could somehow be orders given by separate Gods?

Secondly, I found the defense you were prepared to give God should he take issue with you defiance puzzling. The 7th commandment. You wouldn't feel morally compelled not to comply with that order?

For example, following the outline given in the aforementioned scenario.Let's say you and I are sitting on a bench together, in the quad of a university campus. We both watch a young boy walk up and sign his name on something. We notice he uses his left hand. We're sure of it. So we follow him into his dorm building, and into the bathroom. And, let's say I go along with you because you seem sincere and I too want to carry out God's will. So we follow him to the bathroom. I smash him over the head with a fire extinguisher. He falls down. I give you a knife and tell you to slit his throat while he's down and I run to the door to be a lookout. You cut him open because you're following God's will. Now, you really mean to tell me while he bleeds out that the only thing you'd see wrong with that was that the 7th commandment said not to do that? What I mean is, the same God you believed wrote the 7th commandment had just given you an instruction that superseded the previous one. You don't think you'd feel the slightest bit of internal remorse for taking a kids life? Even if you were doing what you believed God told you to do?

Does God determine what's right?

Or, does God approve of that which is right?

Even more simply put, Is something holy because God deems it so, or does God approve of that which is holy? I'm sure you've probably already considered the answer to this question. But, like I said, I don't have the answers to questions such as these. I must defer to you here. Thank you again for taking the time to discuss this with me. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I would have to question God in this case you've invented. But, the scenario you've provided is too unrealistic. I hope I can answer your questions.

You see, if "Faith" in God is at question.... I have unwavering faith (at least in big things)! So, He cannot question me for that.

If "obeying" Him is the point, I am doing so by NOT killing. God is NOT contradictory... at least in my [personal experiences] of Him. And I don't feel an inner conflict about God, in any situation.

If Jesus is indeed "the Way"? I'm right on the money here!

The better scenario, would be; "what God is telling me as I walk by a homeless person freezing, on a sidewalk?"

---

It's about God. Not people. "Stupid" is following "religiously" anything man institutes. Our relationship is one on one with our Savior. All else is suspect.

This is not Catholicism. A central tenet of Catholicism is that God is revealed through the hierarchy of the church and only in extremely rare & very special circumstances by personal revelation. Basically, you're not worthy of having a 'one-on-one relationship' with God.

Its time to take the shades off and realize that God is the standard. Unchanging. The rule.

Everything else SUCKS!

You claim to be Catholic so you have to admit to having no one-on-one relationship with God. However you also reject anything instituted by man (e.g. religious structure, hierarchy, the bible etc.). How then do you know what God's standard is and how it hasn't & will not change?

A perfect example of a lack in the Holy Spirit...or Jesus' teachings!

Actually this is laughable! Since when is a personal relationship with God "unworthy" of the Catholic church?

Again, you judge God "using" people as your guide. That's like judging food by the plate its served on! "Stupid"

[freedomfromforum]

I would have to question God in this case you've invented. But, the scenario you've provided is too unrealistic. I hope I can answer your questions.

Why is this scenario unrealistic? Can you be specific? God issues some outlandish orders all throughout the bible.

You see, if "Faith" in God is at question.... I have unwavering faith (at least in big things)! So, He cannot question me for that.

Then you're good to go

If "obeying" Him is the point, I am doing so by NOT killing. God is NOT contradictory... at least in my [personal experiences] of Him. And I don't feel an inner conflict about God, in any situation.

Are you sure about God's character here? God orders some pretty heavy hits (entire nations) following the presentation of the decalogue, and he uses man to carry out the murders.

If Jesus is indeed "the Way"? I'm right on the money here!

'IF' being the key word in that sentence.

The better scenario, would be; "what God is telling me as I walk by a homeless person freezing, on a sidewalk?"

Or better yet, "What am I thinking as I walk by a homeless person freezing on a sidewalk?" Why does a god have to be involved at all? According to most theists, I am in cahoots with the 'devil' if I fail to offer the person help, and if I help the homeless person then 'god' get's the credit. I'll tell you [what I think] when I see a cold homeless person. I think "That person looks cold, how can I help them?" Why must there be any god involved?

[ronedee]

My answer is the same. No. And what I would say to God, is that I'm adhering to His 7th commandment. Thou Shall Not Kill. Not to mention: Love Thy Neighbor...and Love Each Other As I Have Loved You."

I find this confusing, given that there are other stories in the bible where god orders people to kill, and their obedience to that order is lauded as dedication to god. Abraham springs to mind (remember, before he was told to stop, he was still told to kill, and he did so.) How do you reconcile these two things?

But, God doesn't talk to me in the ways men typically think He would.

So how do these divine communiques reach you? It's really hard to get a straight answer from most christians, beyond that it's not a literal voice that they hear. It'd be really useful, going ahead, to have an understanding of how this guidance manifests.

Well, Abraham didn't actually kill.... but the metaphor was set. "God gave His only Son that we may be saved." Abraham (by his faith) and his descendants were now "worthy" of God's sacrifice for us!

I'm a Gospel person. Jesus' word is my command. God isn't asking me for anything I can't do! Morally or otherwise.

As far as my communications with God? I ask Him. Does He always answer? Yes, but not in the usual ways.

I'll share one, fine example. My mom was rushed to a local hospital several years ago. I won't go into much detail except that my family was told that she would die. We were not prepared for her death at 62 years old. And she was rushed in for a broken leg! So it was a shock that her heart was damaged, and she lie dying.

I and my wife went into the hospital chapel which happened to be right next to the ICU. We held hands and prayed that "God's will be done". I told God that I was trusting Him, whether He wanted my mom or not. I knew there was a good reason."

We stepped out of the chapel as the ICU doctor came literally running up to us! He said that it was a "miracle"! Her heart was fine and she was responding to treatment. We just smiled! My mom made a full recovery.

I left that chapel with TOTAL TRUST IN GOD! He rewarded my trust with my mom's life. And if she died. I'd feel the same today.

You see. Its not about life or death. It's about Love, Trust and our relationship with God. Who is the ruler of all!

I love my mom, and God no matter what. Death, like anything else isn't a deal breaker for me. Because God & Love transcends all.

Until we can see beyond [our] ideas of what God should be for us? We block His love and gifts to us.

---

Why is this scenario unrealistic? Can you be specific? God issues some outlandish orders all throughout the bible.

Are you sure about God's character here? God orders some pretty heavy hits (entire nations) following the presentation of the decalogue, and he uses man to carry out the murders.

For several reasons: One is that men wrote those accounts. The same men that thought God was yelling when it thundered! Secondly, Jesus trumps everything. Also, the horror movie plot is...well... fiction. Even by OT standards!

Then you're good to go

Thanks!

'IF' being the key word in that sentence.

Well.... "IF" was for your benefit. I usually get flack for the "assumption" that all are on-board for Jesus' word.
.

Or better yet, "What am I thinking as I walk by a homeless person freezing on a sidewalk?" Why does a god have to be involved at all? According to most theists, I am in cahoots with the 'devil' if I fail to offer the person help, and if I help the homeless person then 'god' get's the credit. I'll tell you [what I think] when I see a cold homeless person. I think "That person looks cold, how can I help them?" Why must there be any god involved?

Well... my first thought is "what would Jesus do". If I were choosing lunch I may consider my own opinion!

[The Reality Salesman01]

...

[freedomfromforum]

Well.... "IF" was for your benefit. I usually get flack for the "assumption" that all are on-board for Jesus' word.

Gotcha. Good move.

Or better yet, "What am I thinking as I walk by a homeless person freezing on a sidewalk?" Why does a god have to be involved at all? According to most theists, I am in cahoots with the 'devil' if I fail to offer the person help, and if I help the homeless person then 'god' get's the credit. I'll tell you [what I think] when I see a cold homeless person. I think "That person looks cold, how can I help them?" Why must there be any god involved?

Well... my first thought is "what would Jesus do". If I were choosing lunch I may consider my own opinion!

My first thought is to help. I see no need to ask what anyone else would do - even Jesus. For all I know, Jesus knows this man will kill someone tomorrow if he has a meal, a blanket, and lives, and would prefer that I not feed him.

[ronedee]

My first thought is to help. I see no need to ask what anyone else would do - even Jesus. For all I know, Jesus knows this man will kill someone tomorrow if he has a meal, a blanket, and lives, and would prefer that I not feed him.

Well... I've also had a homeless person pull a knife on me!

But, yeah... I do want to help... or I wouldn't even see that person in the first place.

[The Reality Salesman01]

I would have to question God in this case you've invented. But, the scenario you've provided is too unrealistic. I hope I can answer your questions.

You see, if "Faith" in God is at question.... I have unwavering faith (at least in big things)! So, He cannot question me for that.

These two statements contradict each other. Surely you see that. On one hand you would question God if he told you to do something that would be in conflict with your own personal judgment.

On the other hand you say that your faith in God is unwavering.

These two are incompatible.

If what you really believe the first thing you've said. I would be quite surprised if you had any qualms with an Atheist having a lack of faith. I personally find the God of The Bible to be immoral. My moral intuition tells me that the God character of The Bible is anything but something I would blindly devote my life to. I need not look any further than the texts.

The Ten Commandments which you cited as a defense to God are written two pages prior to a scripture that endorses the beating of human slaves, so long as they are your own, and so long as they get up after a day or two.

How could God be good, and yet not address such a cruel practice?

The God character in The Bible saw fit to list:

Don't say "God damn it."
Don't worship different gods.
Don't make idols of different gods.
Don't work on Sundays.
---
Don't be jealous. (I really don't understand this one, since the two of these rules depict God as jealous Himself)

Don't have slaves didn't make the cut, and instead, he just issues out some guidelines for the people that have slaves, and endorses beating them near death, but not all the way.

If you are going to defend the 7th commandment, don't turn a blind eye to the text written two pages later. I want to believe you are better than that. You have to be.

I think you are a smart person, and probably have a good heart. But something is very wrong if you are unable to recognize that the good feeling you get from believing in a God, does not come from God, but the idea of God. The idea that something so great loves you and takes a special interest in your life. The idea that this life is not the end, that there's more than this. And when it's over, you will have an eternity in paradise as a reward for your faith.

When you consider your answer to my question in a minute, I want you to be honest with yourself when you consider how you know...I mean really know, that any of that is true.

Consider your reasons for believing in God and sincerely challenge them. Is there a natural explanation? Could you have been mistaken? As critical as I'm being of your posts, you have to be 10 times more critical of your own thoughts. Telling me something you really don't know to be true is just verbal behavior, listen to your gut when you challenge the things you've attributed to God. That little twinge of doubt, is your intuition letting you know that you may have been led to believe something that's probably not true.



Earlier you said:

yes I do believe He is the true path to God.

Take into account what I said about the idea of God being comforting to you.

Now consider all of the followers of faiths that are making incompatible claims about a different exclusive God, and attributing the exact things you are to It right now. Literally millions of people, divided over hundreds of Gods, making incompatible claims.

The fact that this doesn't cause you to take pause concerns me.

You made it clear that you would have to question God if you felt that He was asking you to do something immoral.

That's a good sign, and it shows that you would be completely capable of listening to morals even when they are challenged by God.

The next question I have for you, and I don't ask it lightly...

How do you know you are not delusional?

Ask yourself before you answer:

Do delusional people not realize that they are delusional?

Isn't that what it means to be delusional?

Is it possible that all of the people I mentioned, are they all lying about their divine experiences? Or are they delusional?

Is it possible to have a belief that is so comforting that you ignore all the obvious signs that point to it being a delusion?

Why do terms such as "self deception" and "misconception" exist? Are you not vulnerable to being affected by these things, while all Atheists and other Theists in the world are?

How do you know you're not delusional? Can you make a case to a third party that you are not?

Read the definition of delusion, and I invite you to really reflect on it before answering the question I posed for you to answer. The others are for you to chew on...

de·lu·sion

a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs



P.S.
I was brought up in an Texas. My family were all devout Christians in a Southern Baptist Church. I've been baptized twice. I know what you think. I got out, and it's great! I just couldn't see the forest from the trees.

Be honest with yourself, and really soak in the things I said above. I think you're capable of recognizing it. Again, you don't have to answer my questions, but I sure would be interested in reading your response.

---

[ronedee]

These two statements contradict each other. Surely you see that. On one hand you would question God if he told you to do something that would be in conflict with your own personal judgment.

On the other hand you say that your faith in God is unwavering.

These two are incompatible.

If what you really believe the first thing you've said. I would be quite surprised if you had any qualms with an Atheist having a lack of faith. I personally find the God of The Bible to be immoral. My moral intuition tells me that the God character of The Bible is anything but something I would blindly devote my life to. I need not look any further than the texts.

The Ten Commandments which you cited as a defense to God are written two pages prior to a scripture that endorses the beating of human slaves, so long as they are your own, and so long as they get up after a day or two.

How could God be good, and yet not address such a cruel practice?

The God character in The Bible saw fit to list:

Don't say "God damn it."
Don't worship different gods.
Don't make idols of different gods.
Don't work on Sundays.
---
Don't be jealous. (I really don't understand this one, since the two of these rules depict God as jealous Himself)

Don't have slaves didn't make the cut, and instead, he just issues out some guidelines for the people that have slaves, and endorses beating them near death, but not all the way.

If you are going to defend the 7th commandment, don't turn a blind eye to the text written two pages later. I want to believe you are better than that. You have to be.

Well, my judgement is based on God's commandment. And Him ordering something to the contrary is out of character. So, I would deem such order as a message from a false god.

And as far as the OT in general goes... I'm a skeptic to things contrary to God's commandments. I mean, even atheists would agree on the merits of seven of those commandments! All else is suspect, at least for the weird stuff!

I'm a firm believer in the Gospel. That is my guide to life. And to God's motives.

I think you are a smart person, and probably have a good heart. But something is very wrong if you are unable to recognize that the good feeling you get from believing in a God, does not come from God, but the idea of God. The idea that something so great loves you and takes a special interest in your life. The idea that this life is not the end, that there's more than this. And when it's over, you will have an eternity in paradise as a reward for your faith.

When you consider your answer to my question in a minute, I want you to be honest with yourself when you consider how you know...I mean really know, that any of that is true.

Consider your reasons for believing in God and sincerely challenge them. Is there a natural explanation? Could you have been mistaken? As critical as I'm being of your posts, you have to be 10 times more critical of your own thoughts. Telling me something you really don't know to be true is just verbal behavior, listen to your gut when you challenge the things you've attributed to God. That little twinge of doubt, is your intuition letting you know that you may have been led to believe something that's probably not true.


Take into account what I said about the idea of God being comforting to you.

Now consider all of the followers of faiths that are making incompatible claims about a different exclusive God, and attributing the exact things you are to It right now. Literally millions of people, divided over hundreds of Gods, making incompatible claims.

The fact that this doesn't cause you to take pause concerns me.

You made it clear that you would have to question God if you felt that He was asking you to do something immoral.

That's a good sign, and it shows that you would be completely capable of listening to morals even when they are challenged by God.

The next question I have for you, and I don't ask it lightly...

How do you know you are not delusional?

Ask yourself before you answer:

Do delusional people not realize that they are delusional?

Isn't that what it means to be delusional?

Is it possible that all of the people I mentioned, are they all lying about their divine experiences? Or are they delusional?

Is it possible to have a belief that is so comforting that you ignore all the obvious signs that point to it being a delusion?

Why do terms such as "self deception" and "misconception" exist? Are you not vulnerable to being affected by these things, while all Atheists and other Theists in the world are?

How do you know you're not delusional? Can you make a case to a third party that you are not?

Read the definition of delusion, and I invite you to really reflect on it before answering the question I posed for you to answer. The others are for you to chew on...

de·lu·sion

a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

P.S.
I was brought up in an Texas. My family were all devout Christians in a Southern Baptist Church. I've been baptized twice. I know what you think. I got out, and it's great! I just couldn't see the forest from the trees.

Be honest with yourself, and really soak in the things I said above. I think you're capable of recognizing it. Again, you don't have to answer my questions, but I sure would be interested in reading your response.

LOL! If you don't mind me saying.. I was in tears laughing at the later part of your post!

What stood out in the definition of "delusion", which you so thoughtfully provided.... is: "despite indisputable evidence".

The short answer to your question would be, I have found no evidence to prove my faith wrong! Quite the contrary. At every turn of events my faith has increased!

You, or the others may say it's luck, coincidence, or willful thinking. I call it the "Love of God".

Has life been a bowl of cherries? No, I'm not a millionaire who wins the lottery through divine intervention? Yes, friends and relatives, and even a child of mine gone way before their time? Also, coming close to death myself. Yes, just like everyone else in this world I've had my share.

But, my unwavering faith in God has rewarded me through all the dark times. And, Yes! Every so often God gives me a little wink, and a small sign that I'm going in the right direction. Really though, I don't need a sign. I'm not the type to run down to the local apparition of some saint, or other religious icon. I know some people need that kind of thing. But, I know that if He isn't in me already, a sighting won't help!

Most of all, I feel God's love for me in my life. And gradually over time, I've lost every ounce of fear for men, and the folly they create. I know God is in control. In my life and in the world.

Thanks again for the stimulating conversations! Ron

[The Reality Salesman01]

Anytime. I understand why you didn't want to answer my question pertaining to delusion. The definition came from Webster btw. I copy and pasted. I took no liberties with that. I'm not sure why you would laugh at that. I assure you it wasn't intended to be a joke. Perhaps this isn't the place where true reflection can be revealed. I would be foolish to expect otherwise. Nonetheless, I wish you luck. Should you decide to examine your life closer, I look forward to hearing about what you discover.