Proper response

[matasteme]

This situation happened to me recently, and the more I think about it the more frustrated it makes me. What would be the appropriate response?

I was out at a restaurant with my daughter and my mother, who is a fairly devout christian, and one of her church friends joined us. We were having neutral, casual conversation, jokes and random trivia for the most part. I asked at one point, "Did you know that black holes actually shine?"

Both my mother and her friend immediately responded, "God made it that way." I tried to say that was simply an evasion, that a real explanation doesn't require a miracle, and they asked me, "Do you know what faith is?"

My answer was more or less the dictionary definition of the word 'faith', and my mom's friend became so offended that she immediately got up and left the restaurant before her food had even arrived. My mother was telling me I need to apologize, and for a short time I almost agreed with her, but the more I think about it now it seems to me that I was not the one who made the conversation offensive. The fact that she chose to ACT offended first should not mean that I am at fault, in my opinion.

What is the appropriate way to act in situations like this?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Black holes shine? How so?

On what you actually asked:

You were in no way impolite or inappropriate. Not very diplomatic, perhaps, but that's not a fault in my book. Your mum's friend was being very rude, I don't think she should've made a scene, especially since your daughter and mother were there as well and she was supposedly your mum's friend.

[freedomfromforum]

Were you being deliberately provocative in bringing up the black hole reference among theists? If so, I'd say you got the response that you likely expected, otherwise I'd say that you are free to talk about whatever you please in general conversation, just like theists. Your mother's friend became threatened by your reasoning, and a common response to this is to retreat an seek alliance (found in your mother). The 'appropriate' way to act is often determined by any number of contributing factors, though the best position to take with your mother is often one of respect. You may not owe her an apology, but you might owe her an explanation. Education is the best tool you can use to keep your daughter from following in her grandmother's footsteps, and keeping honest communication open between yourself, your mother, and your daughter, respectively, will help to inform your daughter which path is best to follow. The next time you find yourself outnumbered by theists you might want to take a page from this experience that you have shared. Good luck.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

I'm just wondering what did you exactly say when defining faith?

[Cyberman]

Black holes don't actually shine, in the sense that they emit visible light, but they are a source of x-ray emissions as well as Hawking radiation, which is detectable. As far as the friend goes, it's hard to come to any firm opinion based on just the information provided but it seems that she might have been offended by pretty much anything you'd have said. Personally I range from being amused to being annoyed when people make such simple-minded pronouncements about established scientific concepts, especially regarding astronomy. So putting myself in your seat for a moment, I think I might have been tempted to take her comment about "God making it that way" and use it to ask how it was made, keeping the tone one of light amusement throughout.

[freedomfromforum]

...keeping the tone one of light amusement throughout.

(emoticon added)

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Interesting that blackholes emit radiation, I thought it's so dense that nothing can escape it. I'll look it up. Good stuff.

But yes, I agree, if things got uncomfortable I usually just turn the situation into a joke or something that people can comfortably laugh off. Which I think is what your mum's friend should have done if she did not want the conversation to go on, instead of walking out. But in future situations you could be the bigger person and do so.

[KichigaiNeko]

This situation happened to me recently, and the more I think about it the more frustrated it makes me. What would be the appropriate response?

I was out at a restaurant with my daughter and my mother, who is a fairly devout christian, and one of her church friends joined us. We were having neutral, casual conversation, jokes and random trivia for the most part. I asked at one point, "Did you know that black holes actually shine?"

*note to self...NEVER bring up science in-front of devout church goers. They feel threatened by your intellect

Both my mother and her friend immediately responded, "God made it that way." I tried to say that was simply an evasion, that a real explanation doesn't require a miracle, and they asked me, "Do you know what faith is?"

*reinforces note to self

My answer was more or less the dictionary definition of the word 'faith', and my mom's friend became so offended that she immediately got up and left the restaurant before her food had even arrived.

*as explained in note to self. Threatened that you didn't mumble the accepted answer (what ever that is) and just had to make a scene to make you feel bad.

My mother was telling me I need to apologize, and for a short time I almost agreed with her, but the more I think about it now it seems to me that I was not the one who made the conversation offensive. The fact that she chose to ACT offended first should not mean that I am at fault, in my opinion.

What is the appropriate way to act in situations like this?

*note to Mother...
Yes I suppose I should apologise that your friend has so little understanding and interest in science that she would insult you by making a scene and storming out of a dinner over a difference of opinion.

Nah don't apologise, you did nothing wrong.



How was the dinner?

[matasteme]

My definition, and I'm kind of paraphrasing a bit as it was a little over a week ago, was 'Faith is the choice to believe in something without evidence to support it." As for black holes shining, the Hawking radiation was what I was getting at, as the vast majority of other emissions given off by black holes comes in the form of the polar jets, and most people wouldn't consider that to be a shine in the same sense as our own sun or a light bulb. As for my intent in the statement originally, I generally have a fascination with theoretical physics and so I spend a fair portion of spare time watching documentaries and such, it wasn't deliberately provocative.

Good suggestion with the asking for clarification, but I suspect the answer to be somewhere along the lines of 'God is mysterious' which doesn't really go anywhere informative. As for my daughter, she is only 10 (today, in fact) and therefore this particular event will most likely not play a large role in the future. If she becomes religious someday, that fact by itself wont bother me. It all depends on the reasons why she makes that choice, and at least she will not have been brainwashed, so that's already a good start.

*edit* The radiation a black hole emits, apart from the polar jets, has to do with quantum particles and anti particles spontaneously being created and annihilated just outside of the event horizon, a common occurrence in empty space. Everything inside the event horizon cannot escape, but when this happens close enough, occasionally only 1 of the created particles will cross over the threshold, allowing the other to escape as some form of radiation.

[Cyberman]

Interesting that blackholes emit radiation, I thought it's so dense that nothing can escape it. I'll look it up. Good stuff.

That's part of what makes black holes unstable, in the sense that they will eventually evaporate completely. In the case of Hawking radiation, memory's a little dodgy right now but as I recall the principle comes from quantum particle pairs continually popping into existence and then annihilating each other. When they appear in the vicinity of a black hole, one half of the pair falls into it while the other escapes, thus in all essential senses the black hole has emitted the escaping particle while at the same time reduced its mass by the captured one. Something like that anyway.