Is utopia impossible?

[bennyboy]

Free Market Communism is better known as Mutualism, it was developed by Proudhon and essentially consists of workers cooperatives trading on a freee market witheach other

There is a difference between mutualism & free-market communism. Proudhon came to defend private property later in life, believing it should be redistributed among the workers rather than abolished. Free-market communism abolishes private property. Both are incredibly similar though.

Market must not mean to you what it means to me, then. To me, the market is the system by which I purchase things, i.e. buy the right to their exclusive private use. I go to the market and buy a banana, so that I may have the exclusive right to consume it. And if someone else tries to eat it, I say (rightly) "Fuck off. That is my banana." If they accuse me of being bourgeousie swine for insisting on maintaining my exclusive right of consumption, I will (rightly) tell them again to fuck off, or maybe punch them in the face.

If there is no private property, then what exactly is there that can be called a market?

Should we, then, just make sure that everyone has an equal number of bananas? What about my cousin, who hates bananas?

Should we insist that everyone has the same capital? Why? What about my cousin, who hates work, but is willing to live with less? What about me? I like to accumulate toys, and have spent many decades of self-improvement and sacrifice in order to arrange a circumstance where I can?

Communists focus too much on material fairness (ironically), ignoring the various abstracts that motivate people. In a utopia, all people will be able to convert freely among the currencies of free time, of effort, of ownership, of liberty, etc. on a fair exchange. But what about people who want to convert their years of lying around on the sofa watching Oprah reruns into a nice car? That's the American utopia. And I hope it never exists.

[EgoRaptor]

There is a difference between mutualism & free-market communism. Proudhon came to defend private property later in life, believing it should be redistributed among the workers rather than abolished. Free-market communism abolishes private property. Both are incredibly similar though.

Market must not mean to you what it means to me, then. To me, the market is the system by which I purchase things, i.e. buy the right to their exclusive private use. I go to the market and buy a banana, so that I may have the exclusive right to consume it. And if someone else tries to eat it, I say (rightly) "Fuck off. That is my banana." If they accuse me of being bourgeousie swine for insisting on maintaining my exclusive right of consumption, I will (rightly) tell them again to fuck off, or maybe punch them in the face.

If there is no private property, then what exactly is there that can be called a market?

Should we, then, just make sure that everyone has an equal number of bananas? What about my cousin, who hates bananas?

Should we insist that everyone has the same capital? Why? What about my cousin, who hates work, but is willing to live with less? What about me? I like to accumulate toys, and have spent many decades of self-improvement and sacrifice in order to arrange a circumstance where I can?

Communists focus too much on material fairness (ironically), ignoring the various abstracts that motivate people. In a utopia, all people will be able to convert freely among the currencies of free time, of effort, of ownership, of liberty, etc. on a fair exchange. But what about people who want to convert their years of lying around on the sofa watching Oprah reruns into a nice car? That's the American utopia. And I hope it never exists.

You clearly fail to see the difference between private & personal property. Private property is the means of production, personal property is everything else (except land).

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Basically you maintain exclusive rights to your banana (and all your other stuff), but factories & farms & all other means of production become communally owned.

[bennyboy]

You clearly fail to see the difference between private & personal property. Private property is the means of production, personal property is everything else (except land).

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Basically you maintain exclusive rights to your banana (and all your other stuff), but factories & farms & all other means of production become communally owned.

I don't "fail to see the difference." I don't use those words the same way you do, and said I suspected so.

All these means must be managed. How would it be decided who manages them? And once they are in a position to manage, which involves making decisions involving large amounts of goods, what measures could be taken to prevent them from converting their privileged position into personal power over others? It seems impossible to achieve this state in actual social groups of actual human beings, no?

[là bạn điên]

Market must not mean to you what it means to me, then. To me, the market is the system by which I purchase things, i.e. buy the right to their exclusive private use.

So a company cannot buy things in a market then? Only individuals can purchase from a market in your view? You are precisely the only person who beleives this

I go to the market and buy a banana, so that I may have the exclusive right to consume it. And if someone else tries to eat it, I say (rightly) "Fuck off. That is my banana."

And if a Mutualist cooperative went to the market they could buy bananas to be shared amongst the members of their commune

If they accuse me of being bourgeousie swine for insisting on maintaining my exclusive right of consumption, I will (rightly) tell them again to fuck off, or maybe punch them in the face.

They may punch you back

If there is no private property, then what exactly is there that can be called a market?

Property in this case is owned by the co operative

Should we, then, just make sure that everyone has an equal number of bananas? What about my cousin, who hates bananas?

No one has said this

Should we insist that everyone has the same capital? Why? What about my cousin, who hates work, but is willing to live with less? What about me? I like to accumulate toys, and have spent many decades of self-improvement and sacrifice in order to arrange a circumstance where I can?

Communists focus too much on material fairness (ironically), ignoring the various abstracts that motivate people.

Personally I thibnk that is true but you seem to have no grasped what mutualism is

In a utopia, all people will be able to convert freely among the currencies of free time, of effort, of ownership, of liberty, etc. on a fair exchange. But what about people who want to convert their years of lying around on the sofa watching Oprah reruns into a nice car? That's the American utopia. And I hope it never exists.

?????

[bennyboy]

?????

Stop stealing my line.


First of all, why is it that "utopia" always ends up meaning "communism"? Is it because it's a political system that actually works nowhere? That makes sense, I suppose.

And if a Mutualist cooperative went to the market they could buy bananas to be shared amongst the members of their commune

Maybe I don't want to have to join a circle jerk every time I want a snack. Maybe I just want to go to the store, pull out my money, and buy my banana, without having to pretend to enjoy a 100-man round-the-world fuckfest.

They may punch you back

Yes. They may also run me off the land my family spent generations developing, beating me senseless for trying to maintain my right of ownership. They may decide my best ideas and inventions must be shared for free with others, giving me no compensation for them because abstracts like motivation, inspiration and creativity mean nothing in a market which determines fair trade values only by a (necessarily totally artificial and arbitrary) calculation of man-hours-per-item.

[EgoRaptor]

I already pointed out that communism maintains personal property. Wrap you little head around that.

[là bạn điên]

First of all, why is it that "utopia" always ends up meaning "communism"? Is it because it's a political system that actually works nowhere? That makes sense, I suppose.

"

Only to Communists..I'm not one

Maybe I don't want to have to join a circle jerk every time I want a snack. Maybe I just want to go to the store, pull out my money, and buy my banana, without having to pretend to enjoy a 100-man round-the-world fuckfest.

What has that to do with whether its a market or not.?

Yes. They may also run me off the land my family spent generations developing, beating me senseless for trying to maintain my right of ownership. They may decide my best ideas and inventions must be shared for free with others, giving me no compensation for them because abstracts like motivation, inspiration and creativity mean nothing in a market which determines fair trade values only by a (necessarily totally artificial and arbitrary) calculation of man-hours-per-item.

But you want to punch them.

[bennyboy]

But you want to punch them.

Yes, that's right. Communists are a highly punchable group.

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I already pointed out that communism maintains personal property. Wrap you little head around that.

Does it? Including my ownership of land and my right to dictate what happens on it? Including my right to control what happens to my intellectual property, including scientific and medical ideas?

[EgoRaptor]

But you want to punch them.

Yes, that's right. Communists are a highly punchable group.

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I already pointed out that communism maintains personal property. Wrap you little head around that.

Does it? Including my ownership of land and my right to dictate what happens on it? Including my right to control what happens to my intellectual property, including scientific and medical ideas?

Not your land, but it does mean your home & ideas.

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Also, these are just my ideas about where to draw the line between private & personal property. Different communists have differing opinions on this issue.

[Ryantology]

My idea of utopia is along the lines of transhumanism: post-scarcity environment, indefinite lifespans, people could privately live out any fantasy they want in virtual reality, ideas are the only currency.