The Holodomor: Starvation of more than 6 million Ukrainians by Stalin

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

if they were paid a wage then it was separately working on a landlords land

Yes, I should have been more clear. Sorry.

You mean the bit he rented

Correct. And the bit that he rented was too small to provide him anything like a decent living.

If he worked on someone elses land for a wage then why on earth would he be entitled to the produce?

He wouldn't be. I was correcting a mistake you made.

If he was so poor then why did he have 8 fucking children? Blame the fucking Catholic church for the chronic overpopulation of Ireland.

I do. But for the policies which led to the starvation, disease and emigration that reduced Ireland's population by (at least) 25% in just 10 years, I blame the British.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but why are you refusing to answer this question:

Do you have a source for the misappropriation of relief funds by the Church?

Boru

[là bạn điên]

if they were paid a wage then it was separately working on a landlords land

Yes, I should have been more clear. Sorry.

You mean the bit he rented

Correct. And the bit that he rented was too small to provide him anything like a decent living.

If he worked on someone elses land for a wage then why on earth would he be entitled to the produce?

He wouldn't be. I was correcting a mistake you made.

If he was so poor then why did he have 8 fucking children? Blame the fucking Catholic church for the chronic overpopulation of Ireland.

I do. But for the policies which led to the starvation, disease and emigration that reduced Ireland's population by (at least) 25% in just 10 years, I blame the British.

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but why are you refusing to answer this question:

Do you have a source for the misappropriation of relief funds by the Church?

Boru

Do I have a source immediately to hand -no but I'm traveling and not near my bookshelves.


By 'The British' do you mean the then government of Great Britain and Ireland or are you blaming British people generally like some demented Boston Irish American

How is the UK government responsible for people pumping out 8 kids on such a tiny patch of land?

Irelands population was over half that of England and Wales, it was massively over populated because of ridiculous practices of having vastly too many children. That is the ultimate source of the famine. Straightforward overpopulation.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Do I have a source immediately to hand -no but I'm traveling and not near my bookshelves.

Maybe you should have a wee Google, then.

By 'The British' do you mean the then government of Great Britain and Ireland or are you blaming British people generally like some demented Boston Irish American

The then government, obviously. As you said earlier, non-governmental sources made serious attempts to circumvent official government policies through charitable donations. That being said, enmity for the Irish has long been a British (or at least English) trait.

How is the UK government responsible for people pumping out 8 kids on such a tiny patch of land?

I just said that I blame the Church for the overpopulation, not the government. But the British government KNEW what was happening in Ireland and did virtually nothing to alleviate it. It is clear as crystal that what the British did actually exacerbated the problem.

Irelands population was over half that of England and Wales, it was massively over populated because of ridiculous practices of having vastly too many children. That is the ultimate source of the famine. Straightforward overpopulation.

Sorry, I disagree. Apart from the fact that what happened in the late 1840s was NOT a famine, the Penal Laws and British bigotry were the ultimate cause of the famine. Population and the failure of the prattie crop were proximate causes. You seem to want to ignore the fact that the hunger of 1780 was cut short and tens of thousands of lives saved by the simple expedient of NOT exporting food from Ireland. For this, the British government deserves nothing but praise. Sixty years later, things were different.

Boru

[là bạn điên]

.

Maybe you should have a wee Google, then.

Ah because everything is online in your world

The then government, obviously. As you said earlier, non-governmental sources made serious attempts to circumvent official government policies through charitable donations. That being said, enmity for the Irish has long been a British (or at least English) trait.

Bullshit. English people generally have a positive view of the Irish but if you happen to be an English child in an Irish school you are guaranteed to be bullied and called a 'tan'. The emnity is a one way street .

I just said that I blame the Church for the overpopulation, not the government. But the British government KNEW what was happening in Ireland and did virtually nothing to alleviate it. It is clear as crystal that what the British did actually exacerbated the problem.

The Government of the UK ,which included Ireland did very little. in 1780 Britain was a different country to Ireland, post 1803 it was the same country but then you know that but want to continue trying to pretend otherwise

Sorry, I disagree. Apart from the fact that what happened in the late 1840s was NOT a famine, the Penal Laws and British bigotry were the ultimate cause of the famine.

The penal laws applied accross the whole country -not just Ireland

Population and the failure of the prattie crop were proximate causes. You seem to want to ignore the fact that the hunger of 1780 was cut short and tens of thousands of lives saved by the simple expedient of NOT exporting food from Ireland. For this, the British government deserves nothing but praise. Sixty years later, things were different.

As I said it was one country in the mid nineteenth century. The UK had no legal right to prevent the movement of goods within the UK. But hey lets not destroy the myth about 'Da Bruddish'. Lets pretend that the Landlords weren't Irish indeed why not take the American myth and pretend the whole affair was deliberately engineered by 'Da Bruddish' as a genocide (and forget of course ireland's appalling stance in World war II because national myth is always more important than real knowledge.

Queen victoria donated 10,000 pounds personally, the Chruch of England organised massive collections (the vatican sent nothing...of course but they prayed)

I suppose you reject the new history movement that is spreading in History departments in ireland that has grown up a lot in the past two decades and lo longer sees national myth as a sensible way of approaching history.

Oh and the source you need is found in the book Debunking history: 151 popular myths exploded Rayner, E. G. Stapley, R. F.
Stroud : Sutton 2002

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Bullshit. English people generally have a positive view of the Irish but if you happen to be an English child in an Irish school you are guaranteed to be bullied and called a 'tan'. The emnity is a one way street .

Sorry, it isn't bullshit at all. I grew up and went to uni in Northern Ireland. In England, an Irish accent is enough to get you lousy service, or no service at all. When I bought my first home in Belfast, I had to go through a 'front', since the English owners had instructed the estate agent not to sell to taigs. I'm not a taig, but I have a typically Irish surname, and that was enough.

The Government of the UK ,which included Ireland did very little.

Really? Keeping the price of foodstuffs artificially high, refusing requests from O'Donnell and others to reign in the high rents and interest rates that were crushing the Irish, denying starving people wrack rights - all of these and other sanctioned policies not only did nothing to help with the hunger, they actually made it worse. Much worse.

in 1780 Britain was a different country to Ireland, post 1803 it was the same country but then you know that but want to continue trying to pretend otherwise

The Act of Union aside, Ireland and England have ALWAYS been different. Socially, linguistically and culturally, they are not the same place, despite whatever political fictions you subscribe to. If England had truly viewed Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom, they would have done a helluva lot more to keep a million people from starving to death.

The penal laws applied accross the whole country -not just Ireland

Yes, they were, and I never said or implied otherwise. But their effect was MUCH greater in Ireland, due to the larger percentage of Catholics in the general population.

As I said it was one country in the mid nineteenth century.

And today, Northern Ireland is part and parcel of the United Kingdom, so clearly, they are the same country and the same sets of laws apply equally to both Ireland and England [NB: The preceding is known as 'sarcasm']

The UK had no legal right to prevent the movement of goods within the UK.

In your own word, 'Bullshit'. The UK could and can halt the movement of ANY goods at any time. Look it up.

And the notion that England only had a legal say in what went on in Ireland from the Act of Union forward is, to say the least, farcical.

But hey lets not destroy the myth about 'Da Bruddish'. Lets pretend that the Landlords weren't Irish

Of COURSE the landlords were Irish - who is saying otherwise? But the Plantation system and absenteeism doesn't excuse the callous indifference of the British government when they could have done something, but chose not to.

and pretend the whole affair was deliberately engineered by 'Da Bruddish' as a genocide

I'm not claiming that. In fact, I said exactly the opposite. Furthermore, I'm not claiming that the Brits are brutes (although I have personal reasons for the claim, if I chose to make it) - in fact, I praised them for their reaction to an earlier famine.

(and forget of course ireland's appalling stance in World war II because national myth is always more important than real knowledge.

I'm not sure how neutrality is 'appalling', but OK. I do think Dev's condolences on the death of Hitler were, to say the least, ill-advised.

Queen victoria donated 10,000 pounds personally,

Check your facts. It was £2000.

the Chruch of England organised massive collections (the vatican sent nothing...of course but they prayed)

I agree with all of the above. Relief from the COE was helpful, the Vatican's response was dismal at best. The only way it could have been worse would have been if, instead of doing nothing, they had actually facilitated the starvation.

I suppose you reject the new history movement that is spreading in History departments in ireland that has grown up a lot in the past two decades and lo longer sees national myth as a sensible way of approaching history.

Nothing of the sort. I prefer facts to myth (I was educated as an historian, actually). But we're about even here - I'm rejecting myths and you're rejecting facts.

Oh and the source you need is found in the book Debunking history: 151 popular myths exploded Rayner, E. G. Stapley, R. F.
Stroud : Sutton 2002

Thank you. I'll look into it.

Boru

[là bạn điên]

Sorry, it isn't bullshit at all. I grew up and went to uni in Northern Ireland. In England, an Irish accent is enough to get you lousy service, or no service at all. When I bought my first home in Belfast, I had to go through a 'front', since the English owners had instructed the estate agent not to sell to taigs. I'm not a taig, but I have a typically Irish surname, and that was enough.
.

You have just blown ALL credibility with me. I don;t believe that English people would care one way or another about whether you were Catholic or not. I grew up catholic and never once had a single adverse comment directed at me because of it. 'Taig' means Catholic NOT 'irish' which if you reallyw ere from N.I. you would be well aware of. 'Tim' is the same. I could quite beleive that a lunatic northern Irish Prod would do such a thing but yoru are talking out of your arse (or ass as you Irish-Americans say in Boston)

The Act of Union aside, Ireland and England have ALWAYS been different. Socially, linguistically and culturally, they are not the same place, despite whatever political fictions you subscribe to. If England had truly viewed Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom, they would have done a helluva lot more to keep a million people from starving to death.

they were politically the same place. try again

The UK had no legal right to prevent the movement of goods within the UK.

In your own word, 'Bullshit'. The UK could and can halt the movement of ANY goods at any time. Look it up.


Not without an act of parliament. Its not up to me to prove it -the onus is on you.

And the notion that England only had a legal say in what went on in Ireland from the Act of Union forward is, to say the least, farcical.

There is no 'England' politically


Of COURSE the landlords were Irish - who is saying otherwise?

Irish Americans like you are always harping on about how 'da bruddish' stole their grain

But the Plantation system and absenteeism doesn't excuse the callous indifference of the British government when they could have done something, but chose not to.

They couldn;t have legally closed the ports

and pretend the whole affair was deliberately engineered by 'Da Bruddish' as a genocide

I'm not claiming that. In fact, I said exactly the opposite. Furthermore, I'm not claiming that the Brits are brutes (although I have personal reasons for the claim, if I chose to make it) - in fact, I praised them for their reaction to an earlier famine.

(and forget of course ireland's appalling stance in World war II because national myth is always more important than real knowledge.

I'm not sure how neutrality is 'appalling', but OK. I do think Dev's condolences on the death of Hitler were, to say the least, ill-advised.

Queen victoria donated 10,000 pounds personally,

Check your facts. It was £2000.

the Chruch of England organised massive collections (the vatican sent nothing...of course but they prayed)

I agree with all of the above. Relief from the COE was helpful, the Vatican's response was dismal at best. The only way it could have been worse would have been if, instead of doing nothing, they had actually facilitated the starvation.

I suppose you reject the new history movement that is spreading in History departments in ireland that has grown up a lot in the past two decades and lo longer sees national myth as a sensible way of approaching history.

Nothing of the sort. I prefer facts to myth (I was educated as an historian, actually). But we're about even here - I'm rejecting myths and you're rejecting facts.

Oh and the source you need is found in the book Debunking history: 151 popular myths exploded Rayner, E. G. Stapley, R. F.
Stroud : Sutton 2002

Thank you. I'll look into it.

Boru

[theyear12013]

This is not an argumentative post since I don't know the historical truth of whether The British Empire facilitated or failed to step in on purpose since it was was a big thing with lots of priorities.

Was Ireland one of those priorities? I'm not up on the history in detail of how the British viewed Ireland but my guess is no. The Irish humans were not about to build a navy to rival the British but the bulk of the population was on the rival 'catholic' team at the time. The empire wouldn't want a breakup of small parts of the empire so in as much as Ireland would not break away and set a precedent -- it wasn't a huge priority perhaps? Neglect and manipulation against a weak rival similar to US neglect of poor central America in different circumstances -- is likely to have happened. The British Empire did witness a calamity on its doorsteps and probably didn't work so hard to fix it. The Irish humans did have places to go however: the US among them.

Given the eventual seat at the table the Irish humans have gotten in the US, in Australia and elsewhere it seems to me that bygones should be bygones. The EU is going into the shitter in my opinion -- and Ireland should revert back to its scrappy place with the remains of the Empire.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Given the eventual seat at the table the Irish humans have gotten in the US, in Australia and elsewhere it seems to me that bygones should be bygones.

lol, I'm not asking for Brits to be punished for what happened in 1847 - everyone involved is dead. I was simply trying to get lbd to acknowledge that the British government let a million people starve to death on their doorstep, a humanitarian disaster that could have been averted or ameliorated by proper action.

Boru

[Sejanus]