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Morals
#1
Morals
I put this in the religion forums because this guy is trying to argue with me that morals and rights come from god, because if they dont come from outside man then everything is relative and we can justify nazi-ism. Yeah. The funny thing is he is not being an ass about it, usually I give up arguing with people like that because I wind up offended or just pissed off and its not worth it but this guy is actually bright. I refuse to concede this argument because hes just saying the same things over and over again, repeating them as if I must not have understood what he was saying because I dont agree with him. I've taken philosophy and ethics, so I know every argument and he's just rephrasing the classics back at me. What should I say back to him? You guys are great at debating. Basically he started off saying where do rights come from, and i responded the govt (because you know, as george carlin said, if rights came from 'god' we'd all have the same rights and we dont. what rights we should have and what rights we do have are two totally different things. you might have a right to food everyday, but if you are hungry it doesnt really matter does it? Also, this guy tells me morals are absolute and then in the same paragraph that killing and murder are two different things. Absolutists tend to think deontologically, that the action itself is immoral and the consequences are irrelevant to whether an action is immoral... seems to me, you cant have it both ways, cant say morals are absolute and then tell me killing and murder are different (even though they are the exact same action, with the exact same end). Doesnt it say in the bible, thou shall not kill? pretty sure it doesnt say "thou shall not murder")... anyways, thoughts?


(this was the last thing he said to me). I think there is a marked difference between murder and killing. Murder is killing but killing isn't always murder. Murder is premeditated killing motivated by selfishness revenge, spite etc. If someone breaks into your home and, in the ensuing struggle is killed, i do not think that to be murder

Would be interested to hear what your basis is for thinking why morality is a human invention (yet that somehow makes Nazi Germany absolute in their wrong)? No offense intended at all, but simply feeling differently is perhaps not intellectually honest enough, no?
Cher

"I have no advice for anybody; except to, you know, be awake enough to see where you are at any given time, and how that is beautiful, and has poetry inside. Even places you hate" -Jeff Buckley
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#2
RE: Morals
Christians have their own set of morals, and those come from the christians. But empathy is implanted into our brains from the beginning. Most morals are created out of empathy, and the fact that we need to work together, as a society, to succeed.
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#3
RE: Morals
Yeah, he's just backing me into a corner with his circular logic. He keeps telling me if life evolved then it cant have value, and if humans make up morals than we can justify genocide. I really dont know how to respond to any of it because its all bs as we know.
Cher

"I have no advice for anybody; except to, you know, be awake enough to see where you are at any given time, and how that is beautiful, and has poetry inside. Even places you hate" -Jeff Buckley
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#4
RE: Morals
The idea that the 10 commandments was a new idea, inspired solely by God is one of the most laughable of the religious propositions.
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#5
RE: Morals
(November 21, 2009 at 10:24 pm)Rockthatpiano06 Wrote: Yeah, he's just backing me into a corner with his circular logic. He keeps telling me if life evolved then it cant have value, and if humans make up morals than we can justify genocide. I really dont know how to respond to any of it because its all bs as we know.
The easiest way to get out of that corner is to call him on his circular reasoning. Force him to defend his position properly.

As for the two points you brought up above, he's correct. Life itself has no objective meaning; it can't if there is nothing objective to place meaning on it. However, separate people place value and meaning on each other, creating value and meaning subjectively. Just because it is subjective doesn't mean it isn't value and meaning.

Also true that if we make up morals, we can justify genocide. The thing is, we don't make up morals at all. Morality as far as we know is a cumulative reasoning exercise that whole societies develop. Each individual is born with a personality and brain that reasons to a specific moral code. Take 1000 such people, all with different opinions and place them in a society, and the dominant moral belief will become the norm. If 900 out of those 1000 think murder is a bad idea, murder will be made immoral, etc etc. The real debate happens when the ratios are more equal, so in a 500:500 or 400:600 sway. Of course, reasoned debate generally converts people across to a viewpoint, as can be seen by the attitudes towards race and homosexuality from the 60's onwards. The idea that everyone should be treated equally is becoming the dominating idea, and thus changing the morality slowly but surely.
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#6
RE: Morals
(November 21, 2009 at 10:24 pm)Rockthatpiano06 Wrote: Yeah, he's just backing me into a corner with his circular logic. He keeps telling me if life evolved then it cant have value, and if humans make up morals than we can justify genocide. I really dont know how to respond to any of it because its all bs as we know.

Take him head on, look him in the eye with the contempt you feel and educate the fucker. Even if he doesn't change, others who eavesdrop may see a smackdown in progress and think again. If life evolved, it has value as it is constantly adapting and growing. If he can't see growth and change as valuable, then state it for all to see. Luddites and backward morons must be called out for their beliefs.

If humans make morals, it is for a functioning cohesive social group, which is very important. Aberrant actions against the community damage it and standards for group behavior is important in maintaining social groups.

Look at chimpanzees and their group politics - sometimes members act aberrantly. If the group does not remove aberrant members or has more members act out of control, it fractures. Yet they are able to form social groups and maintain them for long periods of time. Members of said groups have been studied and noted that certain trends of behavior emerge in response to destabilizing actions to the group's cohesiveness.

We can see with social primates like chimpanzees that patterns of behavior appear in reaction to other's actions. Can we not note too that in human social groups that we have similar ways to dealing with things as well? Morals for humans are a manifestation of a guideline for basic group politics. Much about the emergence of morals and group behaviors may be learned from primates.
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#7
RE: Morals
(November 21, 2009 at 8:33 pm)Rockthatpiano06 Wrote: I put this in the religion forums because this guy is trying to argue with me that morals and rights come from god, because if they dont come from outside man then everything is relative and we can justify nazi-ism. Yeah. The funny thing is he is not being an ass about it, usually I give up arguing with people like that because I wind up offended or just pissed off and its not worth it but this guy is actually bright. I refuse to concede this argument because hes just saying the same things over and over again, repeating them as if I must not have understood what he was saying because I dont agree with him. I've taken philosophy and ethics, so I know every argument and he's just rephrasing the classics back at me. What should I say back to him? You guys are great at debating. Basically he started off saying where do rights come from, and i responded the govt (because you know, as george carlin said, if rights came from 'god' we'd all have the same rights and we dont. what rights we should have and what rights we do have are two totally different things. you might have a right to food everyday, but if you are hungry it doesnt really matter does it? Also, this guy tells me morals are absolute and then in the same paragraph that killing and murder are two different things. Absolutists tend to think deontologically, that the action itself is immoral and the consequences are irrelevant to whether an action is immoral... seems to me, you cant have it both ways, cant say morals are absolute and then tell me killing and murder are different (even though they are the exact same action, with the exact same end). Doesnt it say in the bible, thou shall not kill? pretty sure it doesnt say "thou shall not murder")... anyways, thoughts?


(this was the last thing he said to me). I think there is a marked difference between murder and killing. Murder is killing but killing isn't always murder. Murder is premeditated killing motivated by selfishness revenge, spite etc. If someone breaks into your home and, in the ensuing struggle is killed, i do not think that to be murder

Would be interested to hear what your basis is for thinking why morality is a human invention (yet that somehow makes Nazi Germany absolute in their wrong)? No offense intended at all, but simply feeling differently is perhaps not intellectually honest enough, no?

I would point out that the moralty of the bible is NOt the same as the morality of today.
Our western society is much kinder than the society of biblical times, we no longer enslave populations conquered in war, the death penalty is much less prevelant and used for only the most serious of crimes.

Next come up with ten comadments: I'm sure that it would take about 2 minutes to come up with comandments superior to the old testament comandments.

Try it, its easy.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#8
RE: Morals
Adrian, when I said that we make up morals what I really said was very similar to what you said. Thanks guys! He's trying to convert me but honestly I'm not interested in debating philosophy with him, because its not a fair and equal fight (because he knows more, philosophy wise) and I didn't become an atheist for philosophical reasons. If you've ever seen the philosophical reasons for gods existence, youd see what i mean lol. They arent convincing anybody.
Cher

"I have no advice for anybody; except to, you know, be awake enough to see where you are at any given time, and how that is beautiful, and has poetry inside. Even places you hate" -Jeff Buckley
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#9
RE: Morals
(November 22, 2009 at 10:56 am)Rockthatpiano06 Wrote: Adrian, when I said that we make up morals what I really said was very similar to what you said. Thanks guys! He's trying to convert me but honestly I'm not interested in debating philosophy with him, because its not a fair and equal fight (because he knows more, philosophy wise) and I didn't become an atheist for philosophical reasons. If you've ever seen the philosophical reasons for gods existence, youd see what i mean lol. They arent convincing anybody.

Imo the reason i reject most thoroughly arguments based on logic alone is because i feel human logic means fuck all when not supported by a physical source.
.
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#10
RE: Morals
(November 21, 2009 at 10:32 pm)theVOID Wrote: The idea that the 10 commandments was a new idea, inspired solely by God is one of the most laughable of the religious propositions.


TEN? Mate,Mosaic Law consists of SIX HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN commandments, called the mitzvot,all attributed to God via Moses. It seems some of the mitzvot were pinched from Hammurabi,who in turn may have pinched some from the Egyptians.


The early Christians,especially Saul, chucked out most of 'em in what was up to then a purely Jewish sect,so gentiles could join.


Below are the first 35


Quote:# To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
# Not to even think that there are other gods besides Him Ex. 20:2
# To know that He is One Deut. 6:4
# To love Him Deut. 6:5
# To fear Him Deut. 10:20
# To sanctify His Name Lev. 22:32
# Not to profane His Name Lev. 22:32
# Not to destroy objects associated with His Name Deut. 12:4
# To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name Deut. 18:15
# Not to test the prophet unduly Deut. 6:16
# To emulate His ways Deut. 28:9
# To cleave to those who know Him Deut. 10:20
# To love other Jews Lev. 19:18
# To love converts Deut. 10:19
# Not to hate fellow Jews Lev. 19:17
# To reprove a sinner Lev. 19:17
# Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17
# Not to oppress the weak Ex. 22:21
# Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16
# Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18
# Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18
# To learn Torah Deut. 6:7
# To honor those who teach and know Torah Lev. 19:32
# Not to inquire into idolatry Lev. 19:4
# Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num. 15:39
# Not to blaspheme Ex. 22:27
# Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Ex. 20:5
# Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Ex. 20:5
# Not to make an idol for yourself Ex. 20:4
# Not to make an idol for others Lev. 19:4
# Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20
# Not to turn a city to idolatry Ex. 23:13
# To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
# Not to rebuild it as a city Deut. 13:17
# Not to derive benefit from it Deut. 13:18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot

Of course Christians continue to cherry pick some they really like,such as the admonition against homosexuality in Leviticus.However,they ignore ones they don't care for,such as killing disobedient/disrespectful children,or stoning anyone who works on the Sabbath.

Ultra orthodox Jews such as the Hassidim still live by the mitzvot as far as humanly possible. (not a lot of stoning these days)
it seems to likely to me the mitzvot were partly pinched from Hammurabi who in turn pinched them from the Egyptians.

I realise I'm probably being unkind,but the detail and repetition in the Mitzot suggest the early Jews were as dumb as bagful of hammers.
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