It really scares me.

[Sword of Christ]

You just don't know if this universe was made by a god (let alone your god), so any argument from you is a "non-argument from ignorance"...

You can say what we understand of evolution and laws of physics are irrelevant to the question of whether God exists or not. It would work if the universe is the product of an eternal infinite intelligence and it would work if you had an infinite continuum and parts of the infinity by random chance and unintentional coincidence would be arranged a certain way. I don't really think you should base a belief in God in the laws of physics but there's nothing we discovered in science that would disprove or go against the existence of God evolution included. Atheists do often refer to the Big Bang and evolution as explanations in place of God but though true these are all things that ultimately can still be traced back to a supreme being, the Creator, the unmoved mover.

Well, duh!!
Add magic and anything is possible... Even physics! Quantum mechanics! General Relativity!

If something is sufficiently beyond our understanding then it will seem like magic to us. In reality it will of course be a process with a cause and an effect with a reason. God is the cause of the universe, the designer of the universe and the reason why everything and everyone exists, the purpose of life itself. The alternative you would suggest isn't necessarily less magical, it's arguably more magically as you have a cause without effect and existence without a reason/explanation. While it's valid as a belief it's not as compelling and faultless a belief as atheists think it is, disagreement with this belief isn't a delusion or a denial of facts/reality.

"the why"?
Oh, you mean the "it's built custom made for us" thing?
Why must there be a thinking entity generating a reason for our existence?

Why not? We're thinking entities so you can have a personal conscious cause for the personal conscious effect. You have the Creator that's God and the creature of God and that's you right there. You have the relationship between the creature and the Creator and that's when you can go into freedom of will and morality, the nature of good and evil and so on.

Do tell us all about this level of "fine tuning"...
Can't wait to hit the search button and provide you with the 70 page paper that debunks all the fine-tuning constants...

We know that the development of life was an utterly complicated process which took billions of years and involved billions more of years of cosmological formation to set up from a starting point in time and there was no margin for error in the initial mixture, the raw ingredients of the universe. It doesn't prove Gods existence but I would suggest it's perfectly compatible with one. Therefore science/evolution has no beef with God. You can still be an atheist though seeing as it's really just a counter belief. Even if say you don't think there is any good reason to believe/have faith in a God or anything beyond the physical world/universe then you're still making a counter statement to the ascertain of faith which claims otherwise.

So is the flying spaghetti monster, Russel's teapot, the invisible pink unicorn and a bunch of others... oh, let's throw in Allah, just for good measure!

Allah is just the Arabic name for God. But all the things you mentioned have no context with the rest of reality and they wouldn't matter to us whether they existed or not. If God exists that's a very big deal and if God doesn't exist that's equally a very big deal. What you don't have is an invisible teapot but something life and worldview defining.

Which god?

Anything that is eternally existent beyond space and time who deliberately brought the universe into existence with a purpose and design in mind will count in my view. So I'm happy with the Jewish and Islamic views of God of course and the Hindu concept though a little different I think still works. In addition to God you may have lesser god like beings, in the Christian context those will be your angels, demons and what have you. Polytheism based religions such as Mormonism would deny the existence of God you just have an eternal universe but that puts them on a par with atheism in my mind, only with some immortal supernatural beings added in.

In Christianity you have the Trinity which is the main point of contention but I would see it as some kind of mystical depiction of God rather than literally three different persons. Divine Trinities are a common theme in many pagan pre-Christian religions throughout the world so I think there is perhaps some mystical universality there. Islam and Judaism are very much against this of course as well as depicting the divine in human form, so these are the main disagreements between the different conceptions of God and how it ought to be approached.

I think you should be made aware that you also have nothing to support the case for the existence of god... any god.

There is quite a lot to support the existence of God, the supreme power or whatever you want to call it. There can be any number of other god like beings in addition but you're not suppose to worship them in the monotheistic scheme of things.

[Ryantology]

There is quite a lot to support the existence of God, the supreme power or whatever you want to call it.

The next time any of you benighted little darlings supply any such supporting evidence of your a god/supreme power will truly be a historical, paradigm-shattering first in human history.

[pocaracas]

You just don't know if this universe was made by a god (let alone your god), so any argument from you is a "non-argument from ignorance"...

You can say what we understand of evolution and laws of physics are irrelevant to the question of whether God exists or not. It would work if the universe is the product of an eternal infinite intelligence and it would work if you had an infinite continuum and parts of the infinity by random chance and unintentional coincidence would be arranged a certain way. I don't really think you should base a belief in God in the laws of physics but there's nothing we discovered in science that would disprove or go against the existence of God evolution included. Atheists do often refer to the Big Bang and evolution as explanations in place of God but though true these are all things that ultimately can still be traced back to a supreme being, the Creator, the unmoved mover.

Indeed... god keeps hiding in the gaps of scientific knowledge... and when the gaps grow too tight, the concept of god changes accordingly.

Well, duh!!
Add magic and anything is possible... Even physics! Quantum mechanics! General Relativity!

If something is sufficiently beyond our understanding then it will seem like magic to us. In reality it will of course be a process with a cause and an effect with a reason. God is the cause of the universe, the designer of the universe and the reason why everything and everyone exists, the purpose of life itself. The alternative you would suggest isn't necessarily less magical, it's arguably more magically as you have a cause without effect and existence without a reason/explanation. While it's valid as a belief it's not as compelling and faultless a belief as atheists think it is, disagreement with this belief isn't a delusion or a denial of facts/reality.

Are you saying that god could be some natural entity?
Some natural entity that created the universe?
Some natural entity that could be a part of a society of such entities?
Some natural society of entities that evolved to become what they are, starting at their own version of a big bang? Or with no start at all....

Are you saying we should accept science fiction as reality and live life like that?

"the why"?
Oh, you mean the "it's built custom made for us" thing?
Why must there be a thinking entity generating a reason for our existence?

Why not? We're thinking entities so you can have a personal conscious cause for the personal conscious effect. You have the Creator that's God and the creature of God and that's you right there. You have the relationship between the creature and the Creator and that's when you can go into freedom of will and morality, the nature of good and evil and so on.

Why not?! Because there's no evidence for the existence of such an entity!
Any evidence you may think you have can be attributed to faulty psychology, or a vivid imagination, or outright lies.

Well... you then want me to think that god has a god of its own that created its consciousness, and the god of god has its own god that created its consciousness... and this god of god of god has its own god that created its consciousness... and I think you get the infinite loop in here...

Do tell us all about this level of "fine tuning"...
Can't wait to hit the search button and provide you with the 70 page paper that debunks all the fine-tuning constants...

We know that the development of life was an utterly complicated process which took billions of years and involved billions more of years of cosmological formation to set up from a starting point in time and there was no margin for error in the initial mixture, the raw ingredients of the universe.

Complex, yes.
Unlikely, yes... look around the astronomical vicinity and you find no more life...

It doesn't prove Gods existence but I would suggest it's perfectly compatible with one. Therefore science/evolution has no beef with God. You can still be an atheist though seeing as it's really just a counter belief. Even if say you don't think there is any good reason to believe/have faith in a God or anything beyond the physical world/universe then you're still making a counter statement to the ascertain of faith which claims otherwise.

Counter?
Faith claims what?

Faith is wishful thinking.
I merely remove my wishful thinking cap and play with what reality gives me. And reality has, so far, given no god whatsoever... It has given me a lot of "faith claims" concerning such beings, but not the beings themselves.

So is the flying spaghetti monster, Russel's teapot, the invisible pink unicorn and a bunch of others... oh, let's throw in Allah, just for good measure!

Allah is just the Arabic name for God. But all the things you mentioned have no context with the rest of reality and they wouldn't matter to us whether they existed or not. If God exists that's a very big deal and if God doesn't exist that's equally a very big deal. What you don't have is an invisible teapot but something life and worldview defining.

Something that has a footprint on reality just like the teapot's is as equally defining of reality as the teapot.

Which god?

Anything that is eternally existent beyond space and time who deliberately brought the universe into existence with a purpose and design in mind will count in my view. So I'm happy with the Jewish and Islamic views of God of course and the Hindu concept though a little different I think still works. In addition to God you may have lesser god like beings, in the Christian context those will be your angels, demons and what have you. Polytheism based religions such as Mormonism would deny the existence of God you just have an eternal universe but that puts them on a par with atheism in my mind, only with some immortal supernatural beings added in.

In Christianity you have the Trinity which is the main point of contention but I would see it as some kind of mystical depiction of God rather than literally three different persons. Divine Trinities are a common theme in many pagan pre-Christian religions throughout the world so I think there is perhaps some mystical universality there. Islam and Judaism are very much against this of course as well as depicting the divine in human form, so these are the main disagreements between the different conceptions of God and how it ought to be approached.

So it's a game of personal preference, huh?

I think you should be made aware that you also have nothing to support the case for the existence of god... any god.

There is quite a lot to support the existence of God, the supreme power or whatever you want to call it.

Oh really?
Why is it that I've been asking for that lot for years and none has surfaced?
Care to present this lot to me?
Do bear in mind that dreams, visions, delusions, psychological abnormalities and other mind-based events will be ignored completely.

There can be any number of other god like beings in addition but you're not suppose to worship them in the monotheistic scheme of things.

So, again, it's a personal preference thing, if you're on one camp or the other... right?

[Whateverist]

At the risk of piling on ..

SwordFightingChristianGuy: Life evolves where life can evolve. Similarly, rust forms where rust can form. Did the great arranger go out of his way to be sure the conditions for rust were met in our little corner of the galaxy? I dare say the only reason you imagine a daddygod setting the world up all nice just for us is that you start off believing in such. Minus that indoctrination I find nothing you've said the least bit compelling.

[Ryantology]

Given the fact that the male prostate is both pleasured by the insertion of a penis and positioned perfectly for it to be pleasured by the insertion of the penis, and given the fact that the anus is perfectly situated to handle the average-sized penis safely, God must have went out of his way to make sure that the conditions were perfect for male homosexuality to be not just possible but very desirable by some. And then decided that men shouldn't enjoy the activity he clearly designed it for, because the Bible is nothing if not stupidly inconsistent.

[Mudhammam]

Likewise, God seems to have a special fondess for particular diseases, which he seems to have made quite well-suited for Earth with their adaptative powers and immunity from known cures.

[Sword of Christ]

The next time any of you benighted little darlings supply any such supporting evidence of your a god/supreme power will truly be a historical, paradigm-shattering first in human history.

The word is support and this is what I'm trying to do right now, not conclusively prove beyond a shadow of any doubt. It's worth bearing in mind that naturalist/materialist philosophy as a belief is still possibly true that can't be entirely discounted. It would be disaster and a living horror if it were true not that I'm saying you should believe in God merely because of that but because it's rational, it makes sense and it's something of value in human life. The main point to get across here though is that God is compatible with science, the laws of physics (he made them), cosmology and biological evolution. You can have all your regular mainstream science and a faith in God.

[Whateverist]

The main point to get across here though is that God is compatible with science, the laws of physics (he made them), cosmology and biological evolution. You can have all your regular mainstream science and a faith in God.

On this we agree entirely. Science does not disprove god and neither is belief in gods necessarily incompatible with a robust, completely adequate understanding of science.

Of course, the chief reason science cannot disprove "god" is the inaccessible manner in which the term is left undefined. Science is concerned with the physical world, including the manner in which that impacts our perceptual/cognitive facilities. But so long as "god" is defined as being elsewhere, he is safe from science.

[Mudhammam]

The word is support and this is what I'm trying to do right now, not conclusively prove beyond a shadow of any doubt. It's worth bearing in mind that naturalist/materialist philosophy as a belief is still possibly true that can't be entirely discounted. It would be disaster and a living horror if it were true not that I'm saying you should believe in God merely because of that but because it's rational, it makes sense and it's something of value in human life. The main point to get across here though is that God is compatible with science, the laws of physics (he made them), cosmology and biological evolution. You can have all your regular mainstream science and a faith in God.

You haven't stated one fact that supports your definition of God other than that the originative properties of the Universe are unknown and God is a creative entity of some sort (perhaps not entirely different from a natural phenomenon though). How does naturalism/materialism = a living horror in comparison to the monstrosities depicted in the Bible? (genocide, slavery, Hell, etc.)

[Whateverist]

Oh, welcome to the forums by the way. I hope you don't mind my playing with your user name. It's just fun - for me at least. You have an interesting point of view and express it well. I do hope you stick around.

- whatthehellist