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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 12:05 am
(February 12, 2014 at 11:56 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: All good examples for the sake of this conversation. I would add Jonah being in the fish three days and virgin conception, not metaphors all actual historical events.
Where is the historical evidence of these events?
Quote:Supernaturally.
"Supernaturally" is a concise way of saying "I have no fucking idea but I'm not going to admit it".
Quote:The "burden of proof" argument is more of a tactic than it is sound debate. The burden of proof is on both the person making the claim and the person who disagrees with the claim. This is foundational to debate/science/truth seeking.
The skeptic can satisfy the burden of proof simply by pointing out that the events you suggest happened have no recorded or observed precedent. You have to explain why we have to make an exception for your specific example.
Quote: The claim that these are empirical questions that need to be settled by (empirical?) evidence is made by you. These may be empirical questions but they could be very well explained as supernatural events. My evidence is the written testimony of these events. If the truth is outside of your set of beliefs, to say it's not possible as truth is an argument from ignorance. The Laws of logic say that truth is justified independently of a person's beliefs.
With no evidence of anything supernatural, we are not required to give you the benefit of the doubt that a supernatural explanation is valid. You have to demonstrate evidence of the supernatural. If you define 'supernatural' as 'anything which cannot be empirically measured', then you have won the argument for us.
Quote:Why does calling something "religion" denigrate it? Seems like the prejudice toward the word is on your side?
It is a denigration, and the prejudice we have towards the word is honestly deserved.
Quote:If you rule out the answer before you ask the question, you will either search for the answer forever or you will accept any answer as truth.
If you can't demonstrate the validity of your answer, and no one else in human history has succeeded where you've failed, then we have no choice but to rule it out.
Better to have to search forever for the right answer than to settle for a wrong one just to end the search.
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 12:23 am
Quote:"Supernaturally" is a concise way of saying "I have no fucking idea but I'm not going to admit it".
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 12:37 am
(February 12, 2014 at 11:56 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The "burden of proof" argument is more of a tactic than it is sound debate. The burden of proof is on both the person making the claim and the person who disagrees with the claim. This is foundational to debate/science/truth seeking. The claim that these are empirical questions that need to be settled by (empirical?) evidence is made by you. These may be empirical questions but they could be very well explained as supernatural events. My evidence is the written testimony of these events. If the truth is outside of your set of beliefs, to say it's not possible as truth is an argument from ignorance. The Laws of logic say that truth is justified independently of a person's beliefs.
The burden of proof is simply logical, since it cuts out the implication of what you're saying here, the little hidden "but only my religion," addendum. If we lowered our standards of evidence to the point that we would accept the evidence you've given, which is "it was written in a book," sans any kind of conformation to physical reality or evidence, then we would also be stuck believing the claims of every other religious text, many of them mutually exclusive and contradictory. That's the end result of the evidence requisites you're proposing; a bunch of nonsense.
The fact that you're willing to disregard all the others and only believe your own religion's claims shows that what you're really doing here is attempting to slip your special pleading under the door by attacking the very idea that you'd need to do more to demonstrate your claims than just point to the book that is the claim. It's sad.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 12:39 am
Alright, this one is for those among us who don't fucking understand the Burden of Proof.
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 7:27 am
You can't have a burden of proof if something by the definition of what it is can't ever be proved. If God isn't physical then it isn't something you can see, there's nothing physically there to study or demonstrate. The burden of proof will only apply in matters of science not faith.
Come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant.
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 7:34 am
Well then, you shouldn't have claimed god exists. Its not our problem that you can't provide any evidence. Though other theists will tell us that they can prove god exists.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 7:37 am
(February 12, 2014 at 11:56 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Why does calling something "religion" denigrate it? Seems like the prejudice toward the word is on your side? You referred to atheism as a religion in order to accuse atheists of using the fallacy of appeal to authority. So you're saying that you don't see this as a negative characteristic of religion?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 7:59 am
(February 13, 2014 at 7:34 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: Well then, you shouldn't have claimed god exists. Its not our problem that you can't provide any evidence. Though other theists will tell us that they can prove god exists.
You have one kind of a belief and another kind of belief neither of which science can prove.
Come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant.
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 8:03 am
And what beliefs are these?
Besides, beliefs are irrelevant. Claims are what the burden of proof concerns.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: How much of the Bible do you believe literally?
February 13, 2014 at 8:06 am
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
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