I'm an atheist but I quite like Buddism...

[The Grand Nudger]

They're -all- "wtf sects" - the grounds may differ in each individual case....but this places it squarely in the same camp as any other faith in that regard. Might have something to do with all sects being grounded in "magic" - of course the results are spotty-at-best.

Now, starting at magic (as in "be decent because:magic", yeah...I'll get right on it, lol), and since there's nothing in buddhism that you can't find elsewhere, and since many of those other things do not...even every once in awhile, yield any of that ridiculous shit mentioned earlier, this leaves me, personally, with the impression that buddhism is useless. Opinions vary, there are many like it....but this one is mine. Buddhism has nothing to teach me, I gain nothing by way of buddhism.

Can't recall the attribution or specific wording, but there's a quote from some dead greek (?) about the measure of things created by man being their usefulness to man.

[psychoslice]

So true, even atheist could learn a thing or two through Buddhism.

-meh. This hippy dippy shit is ad copy. Tell me, what do you think buddhism taught the Sri Lankans? Buddhist Nationalism, Buddhist Terrorism, Buddhist anti-blasphemy laws, Buddhist Press censorship, or Buddhist ethnic fucking cleansing?

GJ buddhism - so pro.

(also, in before No True Buddhist™ )

They might have called themselves Buddhist, but that doesn't mean they are, the same as these radical Muslims, they call themselves Muslims, but they don't represent the true Muslim.

[thesummerqueen]

And point has been made...

[tantric]

One - history. So atheism has a clean record? "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." The Jacobian and Soviets and Maoist and Khmer Rogue - they killed priest because of what? The same mindless emotional anti-theist that you are spouting. No believing in God is a logical posit. Hating believers and churches is a neurosis. Just to be clear.

Buddhism has an ethical system basic on enlightened self-interest. There is not magic or superstition to be found. It is a simple observation that people who lead ethical lives are HAPPY PEOPLE. Assuming you are not a sociopath, when you are kind to others, it makes you feel good. Is that woo? It's biological altruism - a core component of human behavior, and evolutionary reflex, even. Furthermore, when groups of people all behave ethically towards one another, not only are they happy, but they are measurably more efficient than people who compete with each other (the Hawk Dove game). When I lie, when I become a liar, I lose the ability to trust other people. Whenever someone tells me something, I have to evaluate it assuming that person is lying. Communication is ruined - honest talk is an order of magnitude more efficient. That is karma.

Nevermind - I get the feeling I'm arguing with a priest of no-religion. These are my ethical principles, show me the woo

1 - Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

2 - Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

3 - Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrow-mindedness.

4 - Do not avoid suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. Find ways to be with those who are suffering, including personal contact, visits, images and sounds. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.

5 - Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of your life fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.

6 - Do not maintain anger or hatred. Learn to penetrate and transform them when they are still seeds in your consciousness. As soon as they arise, turn your attention to your breath in order to see and understand the nature of your hatred.

7 - Do not lose yourself in dispersion and in your surroundings. Practice mindful breathing to come back to what is happening in the present moment. Be in touch with what is wondrous, refreshing, and healing both inside and around you. Plant seeds of joy, peace, and understanding in yourself in order to facilitate the work of transformation in the depths of your consciousness.

8 - Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.

9 - Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest or to impress people. Do not utter words that cause division and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things of which you are not sure. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.

10 - Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community, however, should take a clear stand against oppression and injustice and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.

11 - Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to live. Select a vocation that helps realise your ideal of compassion.

12 - Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and prevent war.

13 - Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others, but prevent others from profiting from human suffering or the suffering of other species on Earth.

14 - Do not mistreat your body. Learn to handle it with respect. Do not look on your body as only an instrument. Preserve vital energies (sexual, breath, spirit) for the realisation of the Way. (For brothers and sisters who are not monks and nuns Sexual expression should not take place without love and commitment. In sexual relations, be aware of future suffering that may be caused. To preserve the happiness of others, respect the rights and commitments of others. Be fully aware of the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world. Meditate on the world into which you are bringing new beings.

yeah, i just bumped a few of those - we try and keep getting better. that's what it's about.

[The Grand Nudger]

Atheism teaches me nothing, and makes no claims to have anything to teach. It is a single line item on the status of belief. No magic or superstition in buddhism, none huh? Is this a claim that I can hold you to? You see anything in your list or in buddhism that I can't find elsewhere (and I assume you see nothing -in that cherry picked list- regarding magic or superstition...nothing at all that I might point at...and are you sure that everything, just in that list, is a good idea -to begin with-)? Your description of karma, btw...might have left something out.

-I'm a humanist, btw. Tar that in the mud, have fun (I don't know if they hand out priesthoods...but if they did I'd like me some-a-that). You, by your stated ethical principles....probably aren't. Which isn't to say that you are not ethical, or that we agree on nothing...but there are some nagging little tidbits just in what you chose to share (and I'm guessing there is a mountain of other statements that you could make) - that list probably doesn't provide an all-encompassing description of your position. You also don't seem to be adhering to your own principles...in your discussion with me - so how effective are they supposed to seem, to me? Here, just so you have something to chew on, so that you might see where our positions diverge when they diverge-

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=ch...q=humanism

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.

I could probably nitpick the wiki, but I won't, it's sufficient for our discussion.

[tantric]

Only Buddhas follow the path perfectly. I mess up all the time - but those are my guidelines.

I fail to understand this demand for exclusivity. Of course you can find all the parts of Buddhism in other things. Nothing has inherent existence - everything is compounded. Buddhists practice and believe in all kinds of magic and woo stuff. So do atheists. Atheism and Buddhism are not of the same category, obviously, or should I hold you accountable for all the practices and deed of self-proclaimed atheists? That would be mindless. I strive to be detached from my views, to accept change and new knowledge. Would you continue to be an atheist if God appeared in your living for a chat? I like the fourteen precepts, but obviously they are not eternal or perfect.

re: humanism...
the buddha taught that humans are at a special point between animal and divinity - we are self-aware, yet we still suffer. because of this humans, and only humans, can attain enlightenment and transcend suffering. gods, if they exist, cannot - their suffering is too subtle to be an effective learning tool. the goal of buddhism is the end of human suffering - the Four Noble Truths are: the human condition is suffering (in the sense of being unsatisfactory, meaning mental suffering), this suffering comes from attachments and desires for things mental and physical, it is possible to free from suffering, the best way to be free from suffering is to lead an ethical life (see guidelines) and practice mindfulness (maintain a nondualist POV). is that magic? is it irrational? we've tested it, empirically, for 2,500 years. it's what monks do - they are ethical and mindful and as a result lead deeply fulfilling and satisfying lives, otherwise, obviously, they'd do something else. all of us buddhists try, and, as they say, YMMV. i do my best, and i know it works for me. how on earth could you possibly have a problem with that?

just out of curiousity, what is your purpose in life? do you have joy and peace in your life - do you know how to cultivate that? do you seek it? seriously, how do you address the fundamental challenge of living well? i'm asking for your plans and intentions, i know that individual lives contain bumps and detours and mishaps.

[The Grand Nudger]

Only Buddhas follow the path perfectly. I mess up all the time - but those are my guidelines.

Sounds like woo. Point to a buddha so we can see how perfectly they follow this path?

I fail to understand this demand for exclusivity. Of course you can find all the parts of Buddhism in other things. Nothing has inherent existence - everything is compounded. Buddhists practice and believe in all kinds of magic and woo stuff.

Not really a demand for exclusivity in my case. But being who I am, if some person claims that a tradition grants them something that I want, and I see a more rational alternative without additional baggage and no magic, I take that instead (the baggage is usually the problem which I would like to see resolved - it grinds my gears when people "get it right" for absurdly silly reasons...a much stronger case can be made). Often enough, I just don't want what any given religion says it offers. I have what you might consider smaller aspirations. Most of the time I'm just looking for some tangible work that I can do which provides a demonstrable benefit to myself and those around me. With my hands, mind you, not my "spirit".

So do atheists. Atheism and Buddhism are not of the same category, obviously, or should I hold you accountable for all the practices and deed of self-proclaimed atheists? That would be mindless. I'm strive to be detached from my views, to accept change and new knowledge. Would you continue to be an atheist if God appeared in your living for a chat? I like the fourteen precepts, but obviously they are not eternal or perfect.

Some atheists may, but unless it has to do with their atheism particularly, meh. In any case -this atheist- doesn't. Now I'm not holding you, personally, accountable for everything that buddhists have ever done. That's on them. The issue is that when their buddhism is pointed to as the impetus (your example regarding killing priests, btw, terrible example of a tu qo..because it was some additional belief about the shittiness of priests, not the claimants lack of belief in god which spurred the comment), and I can get whatever you think buddhism gives without that shitty thing, again, I bench buddhism. Like I said, I'm a humanist. I don't think that either atheism or theism (or deism) would continue to have any meaning to me if I were presented with a god. If you're asking me whether, for example..if I met the christian god (or any other) I would become a christian (or any other), or not- the answer is "not". I wouldn't. My atheism does not inform me in this regard, or any other.

the buddha taught that humans are at a special point between animal and divinity - we are self-aware, yet we still suffer.

Woo....don't care. Useless to me.

because of this human, and only humans, can attain enlightenment and transcend suffering.

Woo, don't care, useless to me.

gods, if they exist, cannot - their suffering is too subtle to be an effective learning tool.

Woo, don't care, useless to me.

the goal of buddhism is the end of human suffering

-and good luck achieving that by means of magic.

- the Four Noble Truths are: the human condition is suffering (in the sense of being unsatisfactory), this suffering comes from attachments and desires for things mental and physical, it is possible to free from suffering, the best way to be free from suffering is to lead an ethical life and practice mindfulness (maintain a nondualist POV). is that magic?

What's unsatisfactory, suffering, or the human condition? I think that your summary of where suffering comes from is woo-based, and I don't think that suffering can actually be removed by leading an ethical life or practicing "mindfulness".

is it irrational?

as you've described it? Yes.

we've tested it, empirically, for 2,500 years. it's what monks do - they are ethical and mindful and as a result lead deeply fulfilling and satisfying lives, otherwise, obviously, they'd do something else. all of us buddhists try, and, as they say, YMMV. i do my best, and i know it works for me. how on earth could you possibly have a problem with that?

Yeah, and the christians have tested their faiths empirically as well, for just about as long. Surprise surprise...it's returned similar results in both cases.

I already layed out my problem with -all of it-. I'm a humanist. I don't think that anything you mentioned in that last post or this post is capable of achieving what you claim it sets out to achieve, I don;t think that the foundations upon which any of it are erected can possibly withstand the weight of the house built atop. I don't think that your monks have escaped the human condition, even marginally, and I don't believe that there are any "buddhas" or ever have been. I prefer rational solutions to human problems, and I place humans and human matters at the top of my list. Spirits, buddhas, karma, enlightenment, transcending suffering, none of this means anything to me. Each and every one is a deepity.

(I take it you don't need to me gut your last post anymore, and that you've gone from "what woo?" to "everyone's doing it!" at this point, right? Amusingly..this is right where we started...isn't it..with the whole "kill the priests" routine?)

Let me end this with the suggestion that none of whatever benefits you've found in buddhism actually come from buddhism (and that some of those principles you mentioned aren't all that beneficial - to anyone). I think that they are more correctly attributed to you, personally. Your potential as a human being - all of our potential. Insomuch as religion seems ever present and standing in the way of that potential, I oppose it. Insomuch as it causes others to suffer on it's count, I abhor it. When it keeps it in it's pants, I ignore it.

[ComradeMeow]

Please do me a favor and read before you type. . .

When I said exempt I mean't exempt from being a religion.

I did read your post. The fact that you chose to focus on my misinterpretation due to your grammatically incorrect statement (the lack of a period made me think something went wrong and part of your message was missing), rather than the rest of my post, says more about you than it does about me.

Sorry I don't speak Stupid. It is a foreign language to me

[One Above All]

Sorry I don't speak Stupid. It is a foreign language to me

Excellent rebuttal. I am defeated.

[JonDarbyXIII]

Next week, I'm actually joining some of the members of a local Buddhist community in their Noble Silence, a week-long (in their case) vow of silence. I've studied many of the world religions, and I have taken part in the various practices of them. I still think they're all complete crap, but for some reason it intrigues me to learn what I can about what and why they believe.

There are actually a lot of things I do like about Buddhism, particularly since it is a non-Theistic religion, and the Noble Silence in particular has always intrigued me. I actually think that I won't have too much trouble not speaking for 7 days. Most Buddhists, however, extend the silence to the many 'distractions' in life, and since I've never been one to do anything half way, I'm also going without TV, computer (ouch), iPod (super-ouch), etc. during this time. I'm not sure how it will go, but it should be interesting nonetheless!