Totally NOT a debate about the veracity of the gospels

[Rampant.A.I.]

I do love how Disciplus always falls back on "all morality comes from the bible" having been repeatedly shown passages where the bible not only condones but endorses rape.

Which is immoral.

But not immoral in the bible.

[Minimalist]

It's only not immoral if 'god' says its okay.

If he doesn't - you have to pay the girl's father and marry her or some such shit.

[*Deidre*]

I do love how Disciplus always falls back on "all morality comes from the bible" having been repeatedly shown passages where the bible not only condones but endorses rape.

Which is immoral.

But not immoral in the bible.

Lol yup

Immorality and morality, or common rights and wrongs, come from mankind. How brilliant to "invent" religions that support one's depravity and justify it as "the word of God."

To that end, slavery, rape, incest, racism, female oppression, sexism, and bigotry all come from the Bible, disguised as "God's laws."

It's very sad. Which is why many Christians have no problem supporting government programs that are designed to marginalize non Christians.

---

I do love how Disciplus always falls back on "all morality comes from the bible" having been repeatedly shown passages where the bible not only condones but endorses rape.

Which is immoral.

But not immoral in the bible.

The rebuttal for that will most likely be ...well, cultures back then operated a bit differently you know and um, God might have been testing the faith of his people. And um...

Throw it in the washing machine and set it on the spin cycle.
:p

[discipulus]

The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Please feel free to amend this to the correct "my version of christian teachings." You know as well as I do that there are other churches and denominations and individual christians who accept my asterisked ideas as true to the word of god. And I won't indulge in a True Scotsman fallacy here; I'm happy to accept that you believe something different, but let's not pretend that yours is the only christian teaching on any given issue.

Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

Oh, they aren't misconceptions: they're in the bible. Each and every one. Which is why I guess it's important to draw a distinction between "christian teachings," and "the word of god." Because they're two different things; what you believe about your religion and what the book says are very different.

Given this, it's not as though these teachings are unique to christianity, given that the one unique belief set you guys have is being selectively read. Could it be that these teachings are just human ideals that christianity has attempted to take credit for?

I mean, the one common element is that humans are the ones espousing them...

If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

: )

Nah, I don't really need more spin about how, for example, the biblical endorsement of slavery really doesn't mean what it actually says. I feel sick enough already.

Take some medicine. Get some rest. You may be straining your eyes a bit much. I do that sometimes.

Feel better Esquilax.

---

I do love how Disciplus always falls back on "all morality comes from the bible" having been repeatedly shown passages where the bible not only condones but endorses rape.

Which is immoral.

But not immoral in the bible.

Lol yup

Immorality and morality, or common rights and wrongs, come from mankind. How brilliant to "invent" religions that support one's depravity and justify it as "the word of God."

To that end, slavery, rape, incest, racism, female oppression, sexism, and bigotry all come from the Bible, disguised as "God's laws."

It's very sad. Which is why many Christians have no problem supporting government programs that are designed to marginalize non Christians.

---

I do love how Disciplus always falls back on "all morality comes from the bible" having been repeatedly shown passages where the bible not only condones but endorses rape.

Which is immoral.

But not immoral in the bible.

The rebuttal for that will most likely be ...well, cultures back then operated a bit differently you know and um, God might have been testing the faith of his people. And um...

Throw it in the washing machine and set it on the spin cycle.
:p

Did I say that all morality comes from the Bible?

That statement is demonstrably false. And as such it is not something I would say.

---

The asterisked portions of your post demonstrate to me you have a lot of misconceptions about Christian teachings.

Most objections against Christianity that I have heard are based on these misconceptions.

If you would like for me to provide you with some references of arguments against Christianity that are not based misconceptions I would be delighted to.

So you don't like the way Esquilax answered your post about Christian morals, because you think he misunderstands Christian teachings? Ok, I'll take your original statements at face value, and explain why I still disagree with you about Christian morals.

And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?

Do not murder, oh wow! That is such a horrible thing to say!

That one's pretty much been the law in every human society ever. Of course, they've all had their own definitions of murder that allow killing as a punishment for crime, in times of war, sometimes for slaves, etc. Including Christianity. But even assuming the Christian version is the "purest" form (which is debatable), there's nothing uniquely Christian about this.

Do not steal, oh wow! I would never want my child to hear that!

Again, what makes you think this is even remotely unique to Christianity? Pretty much every other religion and/or secular society in history has had the same law.

Do not hate people or think evil of others because they happen to have different religious views, my goodness, what a horrible thing to teach a child!

I'm having a hard time taking this one at face value for Christianity, because of obvious examples like the crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc. I guess the majority of Christians in history haven't been True Christians ™. Once again, this moral value not only isn't unique to Christianity, but in this case, Christian led societies have obeyed it less than most secular societies over the centuries.

You are special and of infinite worth, oh no! My kids should never be told that!

Again, nothing uniquely Christian here. Though I notice you left out the uniquely Christian concept of original sin, which makes being human a sin, by definition. I certainly wouldn't want my kids taught that there's something wrong with them.

Do not have sex before marriage! Yikes! I want my kids to have all kinds of premarital sex so they can just contract all kids of diseases and have pleasure at the expense of their dignity and honor!

Here's where I start to disagree with your Christian morals. The whole concept of sex being sinful, and how it should only be part of marriage flies in the face of modern American morals, which I agree with a whole lot more than your Christian morals. By itself, there's nothing wrong with sex. As with anything, it can be taken to negative extremes. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to be sluts. But there's nothing wrong with teenagers who have been dating each other monogamously for a long time taking their relationship to that next level, as long as they do so safely. It's a normal, psychologically healthy activity. Preaching at kids that sex is "naughty", making teens feel guilty for their feelings and behavior, can be psychologically damaging.

So yeah, I blatantly disagree with you on this one.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself!, Woah wait a minute, that is just evil!!!!

Seriously? You love everyone around you equally? You love your next door neighbor as much as your own kids? More on this after the next one.

In all things, do unto others as you would have them do to you! May it never be!!!!

Confucius said it before Jesus. Again, this one's in almost every culture throughout history, so it's not uniquely Christian. And as my Asian History professor in college pointed out, the Chinese version of the golden rule is more realistic and easier to actually obey than the Christian version. Their version is "Don't treat others as you wouldn't want to be treated yourself." Your version, like the "love your neighbor as yourself" above, implies going out of your way for others more than is realistically practical. But the Chinese version is more passive and supposedly easy to obey, which of course leads to the question of why humanity has such a long history of not doing so.

Wow, you're right, those Christians should be shot for forcing their evil morality on us!

Come on man really?hock:

And if all Christians, or even a majority, actually lived by the specific list you posted, then maybe you'd be on to something, though I'd still disagree with some of your so-called morals (like the sex thing). But we live in the real world, where there are surprisingly few True Christians ™ in the world, and Christianity is practically synonymous with bigotry and hatred against non-Christians, homosexuals, or whatever group of "others" happens to be in their way this week.

Where did I state that these various moral duties and obligations were found only within Christianity?

[Fromper]

Where did I state that these various moral duties and obligations were found only within Christianity?

I think that would be when you asked, "And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?" and then posted your list. You seemed to be saying that we atheists were rejecting those Christian morals, which isn't true. We reject Christianity, not morality. The fact that you think those two subjects have anything to do with each other is an example of one of my biggest complaints about religions in general.

[discipulus]

Where did I state that these various moral duties and obligations were found only within Christianity?

I think that would be when you asked, "And anyway, what is it about the moral views of Christians that is so bad?" and then posted your list. You seemed to be saying that we atheists were rejecting those Christian morals, which isn't true. We reject Christianity, not morality. The fact that you think those two subjects have anything to do with each other is an example of one of my biggest complaints about religions in general.

Why does me listing several moral prescriptions supported by Christians equate to me claiming said prescriptions are only found in Christianity?

Explain that.

[ronedee]

Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

From someone standing there w/ their dick in their hand?

Obviously...like the Hebrew who complains and swears off pork, then stuffs his face with it in a closet....your slip is showing perv!

[max-greece]

Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

From someone standing there w/ their dick in their hand?

Obviously...like the Hebrew who complains and swears off pork, then stuffs his face with it in a closet....your slip is showing perv!

What are you doing watching Jews in a closet? How many have you observed?

Gotta say - been Jewish for 49 years - never seen anyone eat pork in a cupboard.

[SteelCurtain]

Ronny's a catholic. They don't do intellectual honesty.

(They do altar boys!)

From someone standing there w/ their dick in their hand?

Obviously...like the Hebrew who complains and swears off pork, then stuffs his face with it in a closet....your slip is showing perv!

Lol. Absolutely hilarious that you responded to the altar boys comment (which was obviously a joke), rather that the intellectual honesty charge...

[ronedee]

Which river is that? The Religious River? Or... The Spiritual River?

If its the Religious one? You're still there!

I understand why you guys say this, but I hope you understand why I find it lacking. The JWs have an even harsher (and more offensive) version of this: if you aren't a JW, you are being mislead by Satan. Doesn't matter if you're an atheist or Catholic, either. As far as they're concerned you are on the wrong bank of that river. JWs even have a name that they use to separate their truth (Christianity) from that of any other believer in Christ (Christendom). The latter are, in their view, fakes designed to lead people away from god.

As an aside, it tickles me to think that a group that has shoved Jesus aside into a secondary role to Yahweh have the gumption to then tell everyone else that they aren't True Christians™. But the point is that claiming that people who don't find god simply didn't follow the instructions properly leaves us to believe that god made it unnecessarily complicated to find him. And he mocks us, too. He says he's so close to us that we may find him by chance, but then he says that the path to salvation is narrow and few find it.

So if I'm on the wrong side of the wrong river and wearing the wrong hip-waders, it's really god's fault. And this seems as if it's by design, and it makes god appear to be one nasty little customer. Telling me I got it wrong is simply insufficient for getting me to search again. Maybe god is hiding from me because I didn't follow the steps correctly. And maybe he's not there and it isn't a matter of getting the steps correct as much as it is a matter of realizing that if you can't get god to answer the door, it's not because you're pressing the doorbell improperly.

Its NOT about what men say! The JW violate the very book they hold dear.

God anit in a book!

Jesus says: "The Kingdom is within." & "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."

Faith BEFORE Understanding! Thats why its "impossible" for you and the others. YOU are stopping yourselves from the knowledge of God.

---

From someone standing there w/ their dick in their hand?

Obviously...like the Hebrew who complains and swears off pork, then stuffs his face with it in a closet....your slip is showing perv!

What are you doing watching Jews in a closet? How many have you observed?

Gotta say - been Jewish for 49 years - never seen anyone eat pork in a cupboard.

Ask Woody Allen!

---

From someone standing there w/ their dick in their hand?

Obviously...like the Hebrew who complains and swears off pork, then stuffs his face with it in a closet....your slip is showing perv!

Lol. Absolutely hilarious that you responded to the altar boys comment (which was obviously a joke), rather that the intellectual honesty charge...

It aint a joke after 2 years!