Rape

[Tonus]

1. Why not teach both? Teach both genders about consent, and situation avoidance/handling.

I think that what they are referring to is victim-blaming, the idea that the victim put herself in a position to be raped. This lets the rapist off the hook, whether that was the intent or not. Everything from a woman's clothing to her location can be used to imply that she played a part in the subsequent attack. Most rape victims are already facing tremendous amounts of self-inflicted guilt over something that wasn't their fault, and having those around them (sometimes even family and friends) add to it can be psychologically devastating to the victim while at the same time providing the rapist with a way to feel better about himself.

Mind you, I think it's a good idea to give women advice on avoiding situations that can lead to rape or how to deal with a situation that she might not understand is rape. But I understand the efforts to separate the two approaches, because the one thing a rape victim needs is to be made to understand that the attack was not her fault, not even a tiny bit.

2. Since when has teaching determined criminals not to do something worked?

As others already pointed out, not every rapist is a determined criminal. Many rapes are committed by men who don't think they have done anything wrong at all, or who rationalize their actions by blaming the victim. This is probably the case when a husband rapes his wife, because he believes that forcing himself upon her cannot possibly be rape since they are married. Changing the attitudes at that level may help to reduce those incidences of rape, which are probably the majority of cases (not just the married couple, I mean).

But no, it won't work with determined criminals who are actively seeking victims. Rape, particularly in that circumstance, is not a crime about sex, it is about power and about imposing one's will over another. Sex is just the means by which the victim is made to feel as powerless as possible (and vice-versa for the attacker). I recall reading that for many of these types of rapists, they can only achieve sexual climax if their victim is terrified or otherwise suffering and hysterical.

[DeistPaladin]

As others already pointed out, not every rapist is a determined criminal. Many rapes are committed by men who don't think they have done anything wrong at all, or who rationalize their actions by blaming the victim. This is probably the case when a husband rapes his wife, because he believes that forcing himself upon her cannot possibly be rape since they are married. Changing the attitudes at that level may help to reduce those incidences of rape, which are probably the majority of cases (not just the married couple, I mean).

This is part of why "teach men not to rape" is a better idea than some may think at first glance. The issue is much more complex when you move away from the thug-in-the-dark-alley scenario.

Think of it this way, if we lived in a culture where it was considered acceptable to rob someone if they left their wallet out or were careless in some other way, we'd probably see more robberies. When the culture sets up an excuse or easy rationalization, you'll see more abuse.

For this reason, I have no doubt that if we knew all the cases of rape, reported and unreported, we'd probably see less rape in cultures where the woman isn't considered to be "asking for it" based on how she dresses or if she was careless or whatever. Cultures that blame the victim readily, or even punish her as an "adulteress", will see more of such crimes because crime will increase when it's easy to rationalize.

Our society is getting better, I think, about the misconception that the victim "asks for it" based on her dress or behavior. However, this old notion is dying hard and stubbornly persists.

Another easy rationalization it's important to educate against is the idea of "husband's rights". As absurd as it sounds, it's actually more pervasive than some people might think. I'm not talking about 3rd world nations with old paternalistic traditions. I'm talking about here in America. I once knew this woman who confided in me that she would wake up with her ex-husband as he was already having sex with her. "You know that's called 'rape', right?" I asked. It amazed me that I had to point that out to her. I'm not sure if she didn't realize that or if she was testing me somehow.

The issue gets really complicated when alcohol is introduced into the equation. Even I find the exact lines a little fuzzy and the laws vary from state to state. At one crime education seminar I attended while in college, the speaker passed around the DC law regarding rape. The first thing I noticed is that men are not protected by the way the law was written (this was back in the late 80s, early 90s). The wording of the law was "having carnal knowledge of a woman without her consent". So gay men who are date raped are apparently out of luck.

The second thing I noted is that ANY alcohol in her system rendered her unable to give consent. Really? She has one drink and so she can legally drive a car but she can't give consent? I kind of thought that was a bit extreme. On the other hand, I get the reason for the law. If she is so drunk that she is unaware of what's going on, obviously she can't give consent. What if she's a little tipsy and she's the "aggressor"? What if a husband and wife are both drunk after a party and 'consensually' make love? Did they rape each other?

I think there's some room for debate as to where the line should be drawn on her (or his) capacity to offer consent.

Regardless, this is an issue worthy of formal education. While it is true the sociopath is never going to be reached, a more borderline person might be dissuaded if all the easy rationalizations can be taken away.

[Zidneya]

I think your "small concession" may be bigger than you think. IOW, rape isn't just done by "determined criminals." A lot of rape results from the incorrect idea that a drunk woman can give consent. A campaign in Canada a few years ago to combat that notion was followed by a 10% decrease in reported sexual assaults.

Actually it's the other way around. His "small concession" may be that and only that. Yeah a considerable amount of rape victims and perpetrators happen because of they consume alcohol but that's just one of the individual factors of the people involved. But that doesn't mean that is be the most popular source of problems. After all let's not forget that rape divides into:

• Anger rape
  
• Power rape(also known as Frustration rape)
  
• Sadistic rape
  
• Rejection rape
  
• Gang rape
  
• Serial rape
  
• Tension release rape
  
• Love triangle rape
  
• Drudged victim rape(also known as Black out rape)
  
• Fantasy of rape
  
• Sexual gratification rape
  
• An let's not forget the rape incited by the sexual abuse in childhood.
  

And even when many rapists direct their acts at individuals whom they already know. Pretty much all the cases of rape and robbery(where the victim gets mugged and raped) happen to unknown people.

I think rape on the whole probably doesn't happen how most people imagine it. Like Esq mentioned, most of the time rape happens by people who already know each other. Not some guy lurking down a street alley. It's not as black and white like that.

I imagine most rapes happen as a result of people being too drunk to know what they're actually doing. There was an ad campaign in the UK aimed at teenagers about this very thing:

Actually what you say along with this campaign only applies to the same as alpha male said. That most cases happen because alcohol. But alcohol don't cause rape, nor is a catalyst for rape.
Alcohol only complicates more everything because alcohol make people to be more uninhibited. But that's it.

For example let's look at that video:




Let's be realistic in that video the guy can clearly plead that she encouraged him.
He can also claim that she feel attracted to him which leaves her with two options. She can either lie saying that she didn't fell attraction, or admit it and let everyone else doubt he.
Many women even when they say No that doesn't necessarily means they want to stop. It's just a automatic response towards a unexpected sexual encounter however it can't be really accurate. How many of us have been with someone who clearly says no but deep down in the bottom they really want to.

---

---

The hole best friend/girlfriend affairs were established in part because of women and men ignored their lovers when they said no.
Also if I were that girl I would start screaming like hell. Screaming is one of the most clear signs of unwanted sex. And fight back as well.
Many rapists claim that the victim indeed wanted sex because the whole time it stayed still and quite. (And in pretty much many of the cases of sexual molestation toward minors because that is the most common thing that victims do. Because in many cases the victim if it's someone who is very scared or frightened by common sense they preconceived the idea that if I start screaming or fight back my perpetrator will either hurt me or kill me)

And that scene that is shown in that particular commercial isn't a direct form of rape. It all a sum of sexual misleadings that leads to a misunderstanding along with the intoxication of alcohol. The the clearest proof that the boy is seeing what you are doing it realizes that this wrong. Alcohol only complicates more the situation but it isn't the principal source of rape. Alcohol it's the principal source of sexual misinterpretations. That also causes to doubt ones words, back up silly arguments and makes the whole testimony of both victims and perpetrators blurry. Theres a whole movie that talks about that its called "Body Shots". And even when it involves several sex stories among drunk people. The main plot it's about a couple that was so drunk that they don't even remember if he raped her or not. So all so their friends advise the both to lie in order to prevent looking like idiots in front of the judge.

---

---

I avoid all those problems by making her be on top while I caress (not grab or squeeze just a simple caress) with my hands. That way she can let go or leave if she wants to and I'm not forcing her to do anything she don't want to.

So you see theres a limit of how far moderating the consume of alcohol will help preventing rape. However it its' the source of the problem The source it's the uncontrollable sexual appetite untreated by life experiences. If you want to combat poverty and delinquency. you can give them jobs. If you want to combat the illiteracy and ignorance of people you establish schools and academic courses. If you want to combat hunger you establish food cents. But how you combat rape? The only way is to get every horny person laid and happy and that's impossible.

[Losty]

I hate not being able to delete my post.

[Zidneya]

I hate not being able to delete my post.

I know what you are talking about. I don't have any particular post in this thread that I want to delete but nevertheless I know the feeling.

[Ryantology]

1. Why not teach both? Teach both genders about consent, and situation avoidance/handling.

I agree.

I hear a lot of idealistic horseshit over the latter part of point one, that situation avoidance/handling shouldn't be necessary at all. Yeah, sure, in an ideal world no one would rape/murder/victimize anyone... but that's not the fucking world we live in goddammit. Ignoring reality with your fingers in you ears screaming "Neither my descendants or I should have to deal with this" solves nothing.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that potential victims shouldn't do things to protect themselves. Absolutely, they should. It's about the fact that, as a society, we tend to blame the victim for the rape because the victim didn't protect themselves. The point is that the fault lies solely with the rapist, and that the victim's failure to take certain precautions doesn't mean the victim shares the blame for the crime.

2. Since when has teaching determined criminals not to do something worked?

How can you tell when it does?

[Bob Kelso]

1. Why not teach both? Teach both genders about consent, and situation avoidance/handling.

I agree.

I hear a lot of idealistic horseshit over the latter part of point one, that situation avoidance/handling shouldn't be necessary at all. Yeah, sure, in an ideal world no one would rape/murder/victimize anyone... but that's not the fucking world we live in goddammit. Ignoring reality with your fingers in you ears screaming "Neither my descendants or I should have to deal with this" solves nothing.

I think you're missing the point. It's not that potential victims shouldn't do things to protect themselves. Absolutely, they should. It's about the fact that, as a society, we tend to blame the victim for the rape because the victim didn't protect themselves. The point is that the fault lies solely with the rapist, and that the victim's failure to take certain precautions doesn't mean the victim shares the blame for the crime.

I completely agree with this, and I really appreciate your input, it's given me a different angle to consider.

2. Since when has teaching determined criminals not to do something worked?

How can you tell when it does?

Point taken.

[BlackMason]

Rape doesn't happen because it isn't teached well. It happens because people think like animals and they believe that below their waists they have a magic trick that it's gonna make them and everyone else feel better.

No bro, I disagree. Rape is about power and control.

hence:

That damn bitch I'm gonna fuck her so she knows who I am.

[Napoléon]

No bro, I disagree. Rape is about power and control.

hence:

That damn bitch I'm gonna fuck her so she knows who I am.

You speaking from first hand experience here? Or are you just talking out of your arse?

---

If you want to combat poverty and delinquency. you can give them jobs. If you want to combat the illiteracy and ignorance of people you establish schools and academic courses. If you want to combat hunger you establish food cents. But how you combat rape? The only way is to get every horny person laid and happy and that's impossible.

---

LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION!!!

Joking

---

[BlackMason]

You speaking from first hand experience here? Or are you just talking out of your arse?

Is first hand experience the only way we can engage each other in discussion? If so, not a lot would get discussed.

But to satisfy your curiosity I'll indulge you. No I don't have first hand experience. I've heard this from a psychologist. What about you, got primary rape experience?